Jesus is not God (Page 6)

xylance: Jesus came from a peasant background, he preached for three years only before being crucified as a common criminal.
By all standards history should of forgotten him. Yet he has been THE SINGLE MOST INFLUENTIAL figure in human history. No one comes close to him n you believe be any man could do that!?

xylance: I believe zanjan is actually a Muslim, she constantly attacks Christianity whilst defending the Muslim perspective and she's pretending to be a bahai to cover for the fact that Muslims hate Baha'is.

xylance: No where in the Bible does Jesus state, " I'm just a man don't follow me."

The flying Squirrel: Zanjan Just likes to sow Confusion , I donno why Mabye she gets paid , But its always about the Bible

Zanjan: Xylance wrote: "The first Christian's were put to death, fed to lions and tortured, all for claiming that a man was God. "

That's not historical fact.

The first Christian was martyred by the Sanhedrin. In response to Stephan's apology in defense of his faith, he was condemned for committing blasphemy against the Jewish temple - that is, speaking against " “this holy place and the law.” (a general accusation)

The first attempt to kill Jesus was made by Herod Antipas, who claimed that he, himself, was the only king of the Jews.

The High Priest, Caiaphas and his cronies, had a hate on for Jesus because He pointed to their corruption and ultimate destruction of the temple; thus, they plotted to kill Him, thinking that would snuff His tongue and the new religion. Traditionally, in battle, when you kill the leader, all his soldiers will run away.

Their own accusation against Jesus was "blasphemy"; so, why didn't they just stone Him too, like they did Stephan? Think.

Jewish law doesn't permit them to kill people. (they thought killing Stephan was ok)

Caiaphas manipulated the Roman Prefect by lying, telling him Jesus claimed to be God. Remember, during the hearing, Jesus said to Caiaphas, "YOU say that I am".

The Romans were Pagans, thus Caiaphas pleaded that the case must fall under Roman Pagan law. They knew that Caesar claimed to be God; anyone who disagreed was put to death.

The rest of the Christians were put to death (tortured and fed to the lions) by the Pagans because they refused to believe that a man was God; Caesar claimed he was God, that all Caesars are Divine. The Jews had been amazingly silent on that issue - not the Christians.

rockmass: @xylance
It is because most people do not let the Bible speak for itself.
Most people make the conclusion for the Bible.

>>>Jesus said, "I am the first and the last."

Revelation 1: 17,18 - “When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Colossians 1: 18 - “He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”

Revelation 2:8 - “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:”

So Jesus title of “The first and the last” has to do with him being dead and come to life.


>>>"Before Abraham, I AM."
The“I AM” was an Angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 - "And the ANGEL of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."


Acts 7:35 - "This Moses whom they disowned, saying, 'WHO MADE YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?' is the one whom God sent to be both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the ANGEL who appeared to him in the thorn bush."

>>>"No one gets to the father but through me."
Notice the word “through”, he is not the source or the target.

>>>The Bible also states that the word was God and became flesh.
This is a documented mistranslation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Historical_Account_of_Two_Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture

>>>Jesus made a new covenant. He forgave sinners, passed judgements, performed miracles, walked on water and rose from the dead.

Matthew 28:18 - “And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”

He was not the source of the covenant, miracles, etc. God GAVE him the authority.

>>>You can go to the historians, he was crucified for blasphemy for claiming to be god and people wrote about it.
The Roman government would not kill someone who claimed to be God.
He was crucified for sedition.
John 19:12 - “As a result of this Pilate made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, "If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out to be a KING opposes Caesar."”
They said he was trying to make himself a KING in opposition to Caesar.

>>>The first Christian's were put to death, fed to lions and tortured, all for claiming that a man was God. Why did they put themselves through that if they didn't believe it?

They believed Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, not God.

>>>YOU might not believe he was God but to try and claim he did not make that claim in the Bible is nonsensical.

Nonsensical - “having no meaning; making no sense.”
What makes more sense?
Jesus is an Angel and God is one.
OR
Jesus is 3 Gods in one.

(1) the law of contradiction
Jesus cannot be God and not God at the same time.
Jesus died. God resurrected Jesus.
Jesus cannot be God.

(2) the law of excluded middle (or third)
So Jesus is God true or false.
He cannot be God and God’s Son at the same time.

(3) the principle of identity.
If Jesus is God, Then God came to the earth.
John 12:44 -“Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in Me does not believe in Me alone, but in the One who SENT Me.”

The Trinity breaks all three of these laws.
The Trinity is a contradiction.
The problem is your belief is not logical and not scriptural.

Jesus not being God is outside of your world view.
Someone taught you Jesus is God, then you looked for proof.
Instead of reading the Bible and letting the Bible speak for itself.
If you read the Bible without influence, you would conclude Jesus is an Angel.

Zanjan: Interesting link.

Rockmass, while it's true the clergy used Jesus's lineage to support the Messianic claim of King of the Jews (to Pilate), it should be understood monarchies were divine institutions, making them the ruling head of the religion (above the clergy) - from the Pharaohs to today's Queen of England.

Divinity and kingship went hand in hand. They couldn't mention one without the other because the king was God's trust on earth. At certain times, people couldn't tell the difference; but, they all knew if you opposed the king (emperor) , you were opposing God and vice versa.

When both Herod Agrippa and Pilate interviewed Jesus with this question, Jesus didn't claim to be God or a king. This is why neither found wrong in Him - no opposition to the Emperor of Rome, to the Jewish king, and not to God.
Consequently, in an interesting twist, Pilate asked the Jewish mob to choose WHO they wanted - Jesus or Barabbas. They shouted "Barabbas" - that name translates as "Son of the Father".

The Christian persecution in the Roman Empire followed the expansion of the new faith.

From a link about Roman religion:

https://www.ancient.eu/Roman_Religion/

"Lastly, there was the Imperial Cult. The idea of deification of the emperor came during the time of Emperor Augustus. He resisted the Senate’s attempts to name him a god during his reign as he thought himself the son of a god, not a god.

Upon his death, the Roman Senate rewarded him with deification which was an honor that would be bestowed upon many of his successors. Often, an emperor would request his predecessor to be deified.

Of course there were a few exceptions, notably, Tiberius, Caligula, Nero and Domitian, who were considered too abhorrent to receive the honor. Caligula and Nero believed themselves living gods while Domitian thought himself the reincarnation of Hercules."



When Jesus was crucified, Tiberius was Emperor of Rome; he died in 37 AD and was succeeded by Nero - under his reign, after the fire of 64 AD, Christians were fed to the lions. These persecutions by Pagans continued until 311 AD.

xylance: Zanjan u need to state your sources, I've never heard such clap trap.

The flying Squirrel: I can see what you saying Rockmass , But In the long run It makes No Difference Its all Sematics

The flying Squirrel: There can be bad angles Too , Like Mohammad beiliving he was getting revolations through The Arch Angel Gabreal , But it wasnt it was demonic , So be carefull
lol

rockmass: Good point The flying Squirrel!
You are right but you can tell the difference between Demons and Angels.

Matthew 12:22-29 - "Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.” And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? “If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. “Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."

A Demon would never cure a demon-possessed man.
Jesus was definitely an Angel from God!

The flying Squirrel: Amen we finally agee on some thing

Zanjan: xylance: "Zanjan u need to state your sources, I've never heard such clap trap.

For the post in question: My sources - Bible, Wikepedia, Emc. Britanica, science journal, universities.

You should try it - look at all the clap trap you're missing!

Zanjan: rockmass: "A Demon would never cure a demon-possessed man. Jesus was definitely an Angel from God! "

You're right. How many Angels did Jesus say God could send? (hint: He numbered them while in the Garden of Gethsemane)

That had me thinking that if Jesus were God, He could have cured the demon-possessed church during the dark ages, especially the notorious church in Rome. As it was, Jesus cured the demon-posessed Jewish temple of His Day.

Seems Jesus could only fix that which was broken during His own generation, noting that His normal lifespan would have extended into 70 AD. After that, His work was finished. Of course, He alluded to this while on the cross.

Does God's work ever finish??? Does God ever stop creating and remove His hand from the universe??

We all know God can send another Angel when we run into deep trouble and pray for that. This has been His eternal promise.

Aspect212: Books showing just how biblical the Trinity is, are "The Forgotten Trinity," by White; and "God in Three Persons," by Beisner.

God isn't illogical. Some times he is a-logical (he goes beyond logic), but never illogical. The Trinity is not contrary to logic, but is a mystery. One being with three distinct persons.

Aspect212:
Christ is depicted as divine in the Old Testament. (Psalms 110:1; Isaiah 9:6; Zechariah 12:10; Daniel 7:13-14 (son of man in the clouds of Heaven).; Micah 5:2).

Jesus is specifically called God in John 1:1; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1Corinthians 2:8; Acts 20:25; Hebrews 1:8; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1. Jesus called Lord in 1Cor. 16:22. Mark 12 (In the parable of the wicked tenants of the vineyard, Jesus refers to himself as the son). God called Jesus His Son in Mark 1:11. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in Mark 14. Demons called Jesus the Son of God who could destroy them. (Luke 4:41; 8:28). Jesus is worshiped by heavenly beings in Revelation 5. Jesus claims to be God's Son in Matthew 11:27.

Non-Biblical Literature

The deity of Messiah is affirmed in the Dead Sea Scroll fragment known as "The Son of God" (4Q246). 4Q521 speaks of the Messiah raising the dead. Dead Sea Scroll 4Q174 calls the Messiah the Son of God, who will build the temple. 4 Ezra 7:28-29 calls the Messiah God's son. In the first century Similitude's of Enoch the Messiah is portrayed as a godlike figure who existed with the Lord "prior to the creation of the world and for eternity." (1Enoch 48:6). 4 Ezra 13 reports a man rising out of the sea and God calls him "my Son." (13:32, 37).

Rather than list numerous biblical passages showing the deity of Christ, I will direct the reader to the books, "Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ," by Bowman; and "Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus," by Harris.

The Divinity of Christ in St. Mark's Gospel.

Zanjan: Aspect: "The Trinity is not contrary to logic, but is a mystery. One being with three distinct persons. "

You call it a mystery then say it's not contrary to logic - how would you know if its a mystery to you? When one can't back up an assertion with reason, history and fact, they call it a mystery. Not a suitable out.

Jesus said 'none of you have seen God or His shape'.....yet Christians are saying otherwise. Quite the contradiction. Truth doesn't require interpretation. Truth proves itself with concrete evidence, over and over again.

The "trinity" is a polytheistic belief - it's not from God. Look at how God works, see His method - if something can't be explained to us, He doesn't mention it. If someone asks Him, His answer will be recorded. If God said a thing in one scripture, He'll say it again in another, and every scripture of every religion.

Jesus was never called "God" in scriptures - He was called "Lord" because He was the king of kings, the Lord of Lords, as well as the Lord of the Age. This rank indicates top authority, power and ownership of something. He belonged to a spiritual royal lineage and ruled the spiritual life and education of men.

Divine means "perfect". Not absolute, omniscient, all-encompassing, God, or deity.

Jesus was a divine physician and teacher, the Light of the world. He didn't send Himself, God did, nor did He leave this earth without God's permission. Jesus called Himself the Son of Man - He should know best who He was.

Alas, lots of people disagree with Him.

Aspect212: Zanjan wrote: When one can't back up an assertion with reason, history and fact, they call it a mystery. Not a suitable out.

My Response: I reject your accusation that the Trinity cannot be backed-up with reason, history and fact. Read "God in Three Persons," by Cal Beisner; and "The Forgotten Trinity," by James White.

Zanjan wrote: Jesus said 'none of you have seen God or His shape'.....yet Christians are saying otherwise. Quite the contradiction.

My Response: Not at all. Jesus was saying that no one has seen God as He truly is (in His essence).

Zanjan Wrote: The "trinity" is a polytheistic belief - it's not from God.

My Response: I disagree. Read the aforementioned books. The Trinity is monotheistic, not Tritheism (three gods).

Zanjan Wrote: Jesus was never called "God" in scriptures -

My Response: That statement is patently false. Jesus is called Theos (God). Read ""Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus," by Harris. St. Pail said in 1 Corinthians 2:8, that they crucified the Lord of glory. There is only one Lord of glory. You totally ignored the Scriptural references I previously mentioned. JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY CALLED GOD IN John 1:1; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1Corinthians 2:8; Acts 20:25; Hebrews 1:8; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1. In Revelation 5 Jesus is worshiped by heavenly beings. For more proof, read ""Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ," by Bowman.

Zanjan wrote: He was called "Lord"...

My Response. Yes, and the term "Lord" (Greek, Kurios) is a term for deity. the word "Kurios" is the Greek translation of the Old Testament term "LORD," the tetragrammaton (YHWH). This term always mans deity.

Zanjan wrote: Jesus called Himself the Son of Man - He should know best who He was.

MyResponse: Yes, Son of Man is another term he applied to himself, and it goes back to Daniel 7. Daniel 7:13-14 (son of man in the clouds of Heaven). Jesus is depicted as divine in the Old Testament. (See Psalms 110:1; Isaiah 9:6; Zechariah 12:10; Micah 5:2).

Zanjan: >>>>Jesus quote: 'none of you have seen God or His shape'

Your response: "Jesus was saying that no one has seen God as He truly is (in His essence)."

If that's what He wanted to say, He would have said it exactly that way. You're changing His intention and His words. Essences don't have a shape. The trinity does.

You wrote: "The Trinity is monotheistic, not Tritheism (three gods)."

You've made a counter that is unhelpful - supply some evidence. It seems you don't know why polytheism is an erroneous concept. "Poly" means "many". "Mono" means "one". Do the math.
1+ 1 + 1 = a multiple, which is many. They have different names. It doesn't matter how many you wish to add.

If 3 separate living beings merged, there would only be one identity, one essence, one power. The trinity maintains a difference and separation - that qualifies as a group.

Fact: If one worships ONE identity above all, then it's impossible to worship anyone else. Any second identity will be subject to the lower grade.

(YHWH) is one of the ancient names of God - it doesn't translate as "deity" or "god" or trinity. Greek is NOT Hebrew. My birth name is Iris, it doesn't mean I'm a plant or organ of the eye.

Jesus only applied one term to Himself - it's the identity of His reality. In relation to men, He's referred to as the Christ, translated as 'The appointed One". This should tell you all you need to know.

Zanjan: THINK: God is omnipotent. He knows everything in advance, in the now, and in the future.

God knew clergy would misinterpret His words, leading people astray and causing confusion. BUT, He gave humans free will – meaning, He would NOT intervene with their choice. Instead, He displayed the power of His own Light, His own truth, His own Word as a guide for genuine seekers.

Who gave the Revelators the title “Son of Man”? This is very precise. See, God knew what people would say and how they'd manipulate so He trumped them with His OWN words. Then He re-inforced that out of the mouth of His next Revelator, and the next after that. This way, His words will never pass away.

No man can outsmart God or stop Him from speaking. No man is as powerful as God so choose wisely what you follow – traditions or reality. Attachment to traditions are the biggest obstacle to progress and understanding.

You don't reject Christ by abandoning a concept or tradition.

Aspect212:

Zanjan,

I gave very powerful evidence from the Bible showing Jesus is divine. You side-stepped the references I gave. Jesus is called "Theos" (God). You repeat bad arguments against the Trinity, which only shows you do not have a proper understanding of it. Read the aforementioned books. The Trinity is comprised of three distinct persons who are one being. You said,

"1+ 1 + 1 = a multiple, which is many. They have different names. It doesn't matter how many you wish to add."

God is not triplex, he is triune. Try 1 X 1 X 1.

It's a matter of rightly interpreting Scripture. Jesus said no one has ever seen God, except the Son. The context is clear that he was referring to God as he truly is in his essence. Moses saw God, but not in his essence. To properly understand the Trinity, and to see it's biblical support, read "God in Three Persons," by Beisner; or "The Forgotten Trinity," by White.

Zanjan: 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 Not 3

A triune is hair shampoo - it cleans, conditions and volumizes. God has no partners.

Aspect, you gave ZERO evidence. You offered interpretations of words. That's not acceptable. This is why that argument has failed.

You have never seen God. Be truthful. You might think you know God but you've never seen Him - that's not possible. If Moses couldn't see Him, how can any puny human imagine they have greater powers than Moses? Since we can't hear God's voice directly either, should we take liberties with it?

Jesus never said you could see God or a Godhead.. Muhammad didn't say that, nor did the Bab or Baha'u'llah. By total consensus of the opinions of the greatest authorities who ever lived, the trinity argument is lost. However, it's lost for other reasons too. Substance and Proof.

In the third century AD, Tertullian (not a great man or an authority) came up with the doctrine of the trinity as his own theology but the church didn't like it and wouldn't accept it. There was a debate between him and Paxeus; still the majority of believers didn't adopt it.

They had good reason not to - it's simply NOT in the New Testament or any other scripture. Also, one man was not permitted to lead Christianity. In later Christianity (the dark ages), it crept in when more influential clergy forced it on the people. The clergy were ordinary men who knew nothing more than the next guy.

Tertullian didn't see God or a Godhead; he speculated. He wished it. So, to describe the unseen is to overstep one's place. Such hubris to be so insistent about it! For that reason, nobody mentions his name.

I gave facts. Then I explained those facts because I'm able to use my own mind to understand those fully. There's no mystery at all to it. I don't copy what others say. That's the blind leading the blind.

Let the authors of the Bible explain themselves. Who are we to do that?

xylance: Of course it's in the New Testament. Jesus speaks of himself as the son, he speaks of the father, and he also speaks of the holy spirit coming to comfort the disciples. Jesus certainly claims to be God.
The word "Trinity" isn't in the bible, but the idea of a triune God is certainly there.
Also, it makes no sense for Christians to make up a concept they find so difficult to explain. They believe it because it's in the bible.
Ask any Christian how many gods they believe in and they'll tell you ONE. Ask them who that God is and they'll say the father, the son and the holy spirit. Christians have believed that from day one.

Zanjan: Jesus also speaks of the angels, the prophets and of the devil. You can't see them either. Who made them all?

All linear geometric shapes are unified. Every one of them can be pushed into a circle. If we viewed the trinity in 3-D, it would be a tetrahedron and that can be pushed into a sphere.

God has no shape - He's the formless and unseen. Ask why it is people ignore that.

The trinity wouldn't be such a bad idea if it tried (unsuccessfully) to represent the directional flow of divine communication. However, it doesn't intend to do that - it sticks the targets inside a cornered area as equals. That's the product of a twisted mind.

Ideas don't lay in the Bible - truth does; a lot of so-called believers have no respect for it.

Take a second look at what many Christians have believed and look at what they did with it.

Zanjan: The Christian concept of unity has, obviously, been unworkable and dysfunctional. If they understood it, they would have applied it. Fact: they didn't so they fell apart; and, to this day, nobody has put them back together again.

Maybe they should change their attitude. New perspective will follow.