Jesus is not God (Page 7)

ChristianBrother: John 1:1 saying word was God
John 1:14 saying word made flesh (Jesus)
This is enought to say Jesus is God

John 10:32 saying.... Jesus said.. I and father are one

Mathew 3 : 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight
QUESTION ............. WHO is Lord here?

1 Cor 2: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
What is the meaning for this?

Titus 2: 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who is God here?

1 Tim 4: 1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 JOhn 5: 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Acts 20: 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY...........
JESUS IS GOD AND ALL

Zanjan: That's interpretation - anyone can put whatever spin on words they chose. They can dance and manipulate scripture, piecing from here and there to achieve their own ends. That doesn't provide new information or change people.

Try thinking for yourself. Lose the factory- scripted response. This topic exists because one can use scripture the same way to argue against your assertion. If neither are convincing, then revert to fact.

Here is a FACT: READ CAREFULLY -> the authors are speaking to the people of their own day, not to you. At that time, the Holy Spirit fully united them as one church under a single name. Why set yourself to be their equal? You never had the same experience.

Only the desperate are pushy about their own version. If your assertion doesn't exist outside the Christian church, then yours is false. You see, a truth can't be coralled.

If you really want the right perspective, go look for a Prophet who can tell you something more about it.

Zanjan: All scriptures state God is incomprehensible. No one can attain to God, not even the Revelators, Who are specially created to convey God's Word to humanity. Yet all religions have had their mystics, who seek to reach God. This is impossible. Here's why:

" How then, could they ever hope to ascend unto such realms as have not been ordained for them or created for their station?

Nay, though they journey from everlasting to everlasting, they will never attain unto Him Who is the mid-most Heart of existence and the Axis of the entire creation.

He on Whose right hand flow the seas of grandeur, on Whose left stream the rivers of might, and Whose court can never hope to reach, how much less His very abode.

For He dwelleth in the ark of fire, speedeth, in the sphere of fire, through the ocean of fire, and moveth within the atmosphere of fire. How can he who hath been fashioned of contrary elements ever enter or even approach this fire? Were he to do so, he would be instantly consumed..........

Great God! How can the lowly dust ever reach unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords? Immeasurably exalted is God above that which they conceive in their hearts, and immensely glorified is He beyond that which they attribute to Him. “

- Baha'u'llah (Gems of Divine Mystery)

patrickhannon419: Do you know that Christ died for our sins as the gospel of your salvation?


Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 

They heard the word of truth, the gospel, and believed and were saved and sealed.

The apostle Paul recieved the gospel from Christ.

Galatians 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 
12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Here is the gospel you need to believe to be saved.

1Corinthians 15:3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 

Some day Christ will come to this earth, He will not come to bring peace as some teach.

2Thessalonians 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 

God in His mercy took your sins and mine on Himself. He loved us and wants all men to be saved.


I am not part of any religious group or organization, but have come to knowing and believing the gospel giving to Paul for the salvation of my soul.

Zanjan: "Do you know that Christ died for our sins as the gospel of your salvation?"

He wasn't the first Prophet to do that. A number of Them have been martyred. All of the Revelators of God came to offer salvation. Paul wasn't a Prophet, he was the most educated and traveled of all the Apostles and firmly discouraged playing favorites amongst them.

For all those quotes, there's nothing that indicates Jesus is God.

patrickhannon419: Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Zanjan: (1 John 4:12, KJV )

"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

(Genesis 1:27)

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Since that doesn't mean we are God, Jesus, being a man, wasn't either. First born - Jesus was the first to believe in God among His generation. That's why only His generation was judged then punished so harshly for not recognizing His purity and Holiness when He walked among them.

Jesus repeated what His Father told Him to say. If Jesus were God, He wouldn't have had parents and nobody would be telling Him anything.

Jesus got angry a couple times but all He did was dump over a few tables. When GOD gets angry, look out - His wrath is fiercer than anything imaginable that could terrify you. You'll be very very sorry.

chronology: Don't know Zan. You are going out on a limb here. All of the greatest theologians in history, from Martin Luther to Dr Billy Graham all insisted that Jesus is God.

No offense at all Zan. But have you actually read Dr Billy Graham's books on the subject? Saying Jesus is not God is like saying that there was no Adam and Eve. You make the entire Bible pointless.

Zanjan: Actually that's not true - there's always been a large contingent of Christians who've disagreed with that take. There's too much text in scripture that negates it, also logic doesn't support such an idea. Having a famous name makes no difference - those names weren't in the Bible

All of the highly esteemed Apostles asserted that Jesus Christ was the sole authority of their new religion. He didn't appoint anyone as an interpreter because it wasn't necessary. For that reason, the first time the 'Jesus is God" notion was bounced about, all Christians called it heresy.

Strange ideas still have a tendency to creep in with time; like worms crawling out of the woodwork, some people are so put off by that they stop showing up in church. They keep their faith at home.

I've read enough of Billy Graham's material to spot him as the least offensive of all evangelists of his time. If you're familiar with the Bible, why would you need to listen to him? The majority of his audience were already Christians.

There are several Prophets of God who also said Jesus is not God yet glorified Him as a one of God's Revelators. They were all much greater, smarter men than the names you listed. Like Jesus, They didn't do what they did in comfortable surroundings with a back up band.

chronology: Well it's the rich cultural background of Dr Graham and his extensive learning that makes him worth studying Zan.

Most folks down in Dixie have no Idea how fortunate they are to live in such a blessed place. Although when they travel through the urban slums most of us come from they probably realise they dodged the bullet of that fate. Their real wealth is in their heritage of biblical studies. Down home Southern wisdom mixed with biblical clarity.

Sorry Zan, but most folks in Dixie would consider you a victim of some really dangerous heresies that have been around a long time.

patrickhannon419: Jesus Christ Is God from what I read in the scriptures. Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 
Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 

Zanjan: Yet you can't prove your interpretation. It says GOD was that creator - AND Jesus, who is the image. ( an "image" is a facsimile - not the entity, itself) It says God is invisible.

Jesus was created. Jesus was once a fetus in the womb, was a baby, then grew up to be a man - all phases of change. He suffered, was tortured and killed. He was visible in every respect.

Scriptures say God is the Uncreated, the Untouchable, the Incomprehensible, the Changeless, the Almighty, and Above all Things.

patrickhannon419: You are making that up, I posted the verses, you do not accept scripture as truth, so goodbye.

Zanjan: Toodleloo~~~

Campion: Zan --- I agree with your point of view. Jesus always pointed us toward God but we look at his finger and fall on our knees.

Zanjan: I don't know why people can't raise their thoughts a little higher, especially since we make such a good case. Something is holding them back; it's not always a lack of education.

I think the best description is that Jesus was God's mouthpiece on earth - however much one may love the receiver, it's the reason for the call that makes it important.

Motati: I wonder how will Christians feel if people in other religions can also say that their prophets/leaders are God?

It's the whole idea of Christians thinking that they are the only ones who are entitled to the love of God. I have read about different religions they are all for the good, why don't we learn to embrace them rather than pushing them away.

Campion: Motati --- my POV is that there is only one God and this means that all who worship a deity (or deities) are actually worshiping the one God albeit in an imperfect way. And although I am a Christian, I know full well that we are imperfect as well.

Some years ago I visited a Hindu temple. I stood before the altar area staring in silent amazement at the multitude of images of various deities, some of them very bizarre indeed. I had been there several minutes when I heard a gentle voice behind me say "God is One." I turned to meet the pundit (priest) of the temple. As he escorted me around the altar area he explained that while God is One, we in our finitude are unable to comprehend the fullness of God in a single "take". Each one of the "deities" before us was simply a different manifestation of God's Oneness. We Christians have done much the same with our trinity theory. Interestingly enough, the pundit was also a nuclear chemistry professor at a nearby university.

In the Hindu Chandogya Upanishad, written in the first millennium BCE, we hear, "In the beginning was only Being, One without a second. Out of himself he brought forth the cosmos and entered into everything in it. There is nothing that does not come from him."

Motati: Thank you Campion. The fact that religion plays a pivotal role in shaping a culture, this has caused a lot distortion and confusion in societies. In the patriarchal societies that we live in, you sometimes wonder if some of these doctrines are there for men to serve their own interests.

Campion: Don't get me going on patriarchy! I consider it to be perhaps the most insidious and most pernicious evil humanity has ever inflicted on itself.

Motati: Yup! Sadly that's what women and young girls go through in most of the religious fanatic environments. They are often told that if they don't obey they will go to hell. Bearing in mind that being obedient is to be sexually molested by men in the leadership.

Some of these prophets are even called god. How can people not question religion. It's so so disgusting!!

Campion: When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that it emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was simply part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himself seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.

patrickhannon419: Campion. You have claimed; (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonymously some 60 years after Paul's death. Where do you get your information. Paul begins each epistle with his name, why would anyone claim something that was staring them in the face ,with some other resource outside of the evidence right in front of their nose.

Campion: Patrick --- Writing pseudonymously was actually quite common in that culture. The table below lists the estimate dates of authorship of early Christian scripture. You can see that in many cases the attributed authorship is quite impossible.

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).

First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]
1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)
2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)
3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)
4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)
5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)
6. Egerton Gospel (50s)
7. Papyrus Vienna G. 2325 (50s)
8. Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)
9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)
10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)
11. Miracles Collection (50s)
12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)
13. Cross Gospel (50s)

Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]
14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)
15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)
16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)
17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)
18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)
19. Dialogue Collection (70s)
20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)
21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)

Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]
22. Gospel of Matthew (90)
23. Gospel of Luke (90s)
24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)
25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)
26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)
27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)
28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)
29. Letter of James (100)
30. Gospel of John I (early second century)
31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)
32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)
33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)
34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)
35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)
36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)
37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)
38. First Letter of Peter (112)
39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)
40. First Letter of John (115)

Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]
41. Gospel of John II (after 120)
42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)
43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)
44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)
45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)
46. Letter to Titus (after 120)
47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)
48. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 112 (140)
49. Second Letter of Clement (150)
50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)
51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)
52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)
53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

Zanjan: Thank you for that. No scripture of any religion has ever contained dates or seals/signatures.

So, there's been a discrepancy between the period of oral transmission, when the document was penned, and when it was published. Could the handwriting be recognized and by what means?

If the authenticity were NOT in question, it would have automatically been included in cannon. Of the 27 books, only the first 4 books were. Most Christians had no access to all the remainder until the printing press was invented. They were lucky to have just one of the gospels.