Bava Metzia 59b and rabbinic sages

butttler: one section in Jewish talmud

DontNeedChrist: Have you ever studied it?

butttler: i was alerted to this section of the talmud and i was shocked..a part basically says man overrules God...quote "Elijah said to him: The Holy One, Blessed be He, smiled and said: My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me.".....first many jewish people will say this part is not a law or should be taken as a commandment...but i have encountered jewish people who have literally said to me...the fact is man can overrule God and the story of Abraham and Sodom is an example..further..from the thread "Lamb of God'....the person dnc or dontneedchrist..states when discussing bava metzia59b and i quote

...."In this astounding story, the rabbis, in dramatic fashion make very clear that it is THE RABBIS and not G-d who determine Jewish Law. To phrase it somewhat differently, it is the rabbis who are authorized to interpret G-d’s Torah, even over the objections of the Divine author Himself. It matters little what G-d had in mind.

It sounds heretical, but such is the nature of Torah and the will of G-d."..end quote

dnc goes on to describe this view is similar to a parent and a growing child..in the end you want your child find their own way or truth

so according to some Jewish people

Man can overrule God and it is sinful man "the rabbis" who determine and are only ones authorized to interpret Gods Torah..or first 5 books of Holy bible..even over objections of the One True God..in fact it matters little what God has in mind... and... this is the will of God?



so it is the will of God that in fact He be considered not God..not Almighty..not All-knowing
not the Great I AM..and i could go on but i wont...Just these two views i described prove
without a doubt that the talmud and oral torah never orginiated from God but the minds of sinful man....who could come to such a view?..but sinful men

the One True God is Holy and perfect and is All Knowing and All powerful and sinful man is what he is ...sinful...and mans only Hope is redemption through Jesus Christ Who is Lord and Savior to all who will humble themselves and call on Him

DontNeedChrist: It's obvious you've never studied it.

DontNeedChrist:

Before anyone responds to this mess above, I would love butttler to explain from beginning to end what this STORY in Bava Metzia 59b is all about. It's just a STORY.

butttler: dnc...i am quoting you verbatim..."."In this astounding story, the rabbis, in dramatic fashion make very clear that it is THE RABBIS and not G-d who determine Jewish Law. To phrase it somewhat differently, it is the rabbis who are authorized to interpret G-d’s Torah, even over the objections of the Divine author Himself. It matters little what G-d had in mind.

It sounds heretical, but such is the nature of Torah and the will of G-d....and i copied our convo..

where you told me one example of man overruling God is story of Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah.

these are your words dnc you chose to use to make a point...why then would i even consider studying such faulty wisdom?...it is not from God..please stop saying talmud and oral torah
orginated from God

Apokalupto: Finally, a thread where our comments wont be deleted for no reason.

Butler, as you have so aptly pointed out, dnc already admitted to this position and even gave the explanation.

"Man can overrule God and it is sinful man "the rabbis" who determine and are only ones authorized to interpret Gods Torah..or first 5 books of Holy bible..even over objections of the One True God..in fact it matters little what God has in mind... and... this is the will of God?"

This is obviously not the will of God, there are numerous examples of where God judged man for not following His word "correctly," and when ever you have a bad interpretation then you aren't following His word as intended, such as Moses not able to enter the promised land all because he didn't regard Gods exact words as in that moment when he struck the rock instead of spoke to it. Obviously correct interpretation of Gods words matters.

Lets look at it this way.

IF A CHRISTIAN SAID:

...."In this astounding story, the pastors, in dramatic fashion make very clear that it is THE PASTORS and not G-d who determine what Jesus and the Gospel means. To phrase it somewhat differently, it is the pastors and preachers who are authorized to interpret G-d’s Gospel, even over the objections of the of the divine author, Jesus Christ Himself. It matters little what G-d had in mind. It sounds heretical, but such is the nature of Gospel and the will of Jesus Christ."

What would you think of this Christian? Is he apostate? Is he even Christian at all? I think not.

I can hear the objections already "We don't interpret the Bible like Christians do, so using their measuring stick doesn't apply to us." The point is- you admittedly don't follow God because our measuring stick is Gods word is first, and right interpretation matters to God as He intended it, so I hope that isn't anyone's actual objection.

Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mattew 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 
Matthew 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 

How we follow the word of God is determined by how we understand and interpret His word- There are consequences to how we go about this because it matters to the creator.

Millennium Envoy: Maybe these verses will help people to realize why the talmud is hardly ever mentioned on tv.

“If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)
“If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
“If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” (Baba Mezia 24a)
“Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)
What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a
“All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)
“Girls born of the ‘goyim’ are in a state of ‘niddah’ (menstrual uncleanness!) from birth.” (Abodah Zarah 36b)
“The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)
“Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)
Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

and it goes on and on.

G e n e s i s: ... you're a Bava Metzia 59b rabbanic sage

Apokalupto: We should try to stay on topic.

elsafer: we give the “enemy” too much airtime!!

God is real: I am not sure its productive since most of us know that orthodox Judaism has some weird stances that we reject.It is true some of the things mentioned barely have resolution and are taught n nowadays Judaism.I would say to drop it and move on who cares

God is real: And is also true that jews do deflect the topic most of the time.DNC dances around the question and goes to ad hominems rather answering the point.Its just waste of time to deal with such people

butttler: Millenium Envoy---wow no wonder...i see now why some jewish people treat christians with contempt and show no conviction of sin....it is so obvious the talmud and oral torah could not have orginiated from God....it is pure doctrine of men and the deeper it goes the more it degrades from moral excellence and godliness

butttler: AA--- your thoughts are spot on concerning talmud and oral torah

DontNeedChrist: Still waiting for butttler to explain what the story is about. Suspect he has no clue having never read it.

DontNeedChrist: What is the story in Bava Metzia 59b about butttler?

Apokalupto: Nothing but games ^

We already used your own explanation as the meaning.

Just as gir said....

G e n e s i s: DNC likes his own posts

DontNeedChrist: No games. My posts do not even remotely touch on the STORY itself. What is the STORY about in Bava Metzia 59b? Third ask.

Apokalupto: What's the STORY about? anonymous attributes's Picture <-- here lies the very purpose of this thread.

Apokalupto: Why do you believe in the opinion of men over God?

butttler: AA--dnc told me one example of men overruling God is example given of Abraham speaking to God about Sodom and Gomorrah...the fact God relented in this story dnc believes proves man was overruling God...christians are convinced it is God nuturing in Abraham Mercy before judgment...that it was Abrahams deep desire for mercy that did not overrule God but touched the heart of God and in that fact God relented...thus setting an example for the rest of us to desire mercy before judgment...which is the very heart of the Gospel message of Jesus Christ

Apokalupto: Abraham never determined the law of God, instead he obeyed Gods word even if it would cost him his only son. Genesis 22:2 And he never thought it necessary to reinterpret his way out of Gods commandment. To Abraham, everything hinged on what God had in mind and that is all Abraham cared about, and he was called the friend of God.

"If they had believed Moses....they would believe Me"

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. - Genesis 15:6

DontNeedChrist:

Anonymous Attributes: "What's the STORY about? anonymous attributes's Picture <-- here lies the very purpose of this thread."

WRONG. That is NOT what the story is about. That is paraphrased COMMENTARY of which you posted the source in your profile but have since taken it down (convenient).

That is NOT the story nor what the purpose of this thread is hence it's title "Bava Metzia 59b and rabbinic sages." Not "What DNC claimed."

FOURTH time I will ask. What is the story in Bava Metzia 59b about? It's obvious nobody in this thread has even bothered to read it, yet they are experts.

Apokalupto: "so according to some Jewish people

Man can overrule God"- Butler.

If you don't like the fact that you provided the interpretation and that butler has made that a focus point in this thread, then leave the discussion, else stop playing games. Ill ask YOU again, why do you believe in the supreme importance of the Rabbis opinion over that of Gods word in the Torah?

I'm not providing the meaning of the story, im ask you why you believe in the meaning that you already gave.