Blatant Mistranslations?! Contextual Dishonesty?! Why did christianity paint Jesus into the Jewish Scriptures?

amoregrowers: I would like to start addressing Christianity and its blatant misuse and mistranslation of Jewish scripture. There are many examples which will unfold as the conversation progresses.

First to address

Christians bibles state that Psalms 22:16

“For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and feet.”

This is a very poor rendering of the Hebrew.

Now lets see it in The Tankah

For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

"Like a Lion" or "pierced"

Lets see where else this Hebrew word is used in the Old Testament

First, in context in psalms 22:13 David makes another reference to his enemies being like lions. "Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me."

But I want to look at the word itself

Hebrew word [k’ari - כארי]

Lets see where else this is used in the scriptures

Isaiah 38:13


I calmed myself until morning;

LIKE A LION he breaks all my bones;

from day to night you bring me to an end.

Psalms 17:12


He is LIKE A LION eager to tear, as a young lion lurking in ambush.

In no way does this scripture pertain to the crucifixion, as claimed by many christians.

amoregrowers: Steven full of the spirit had these things to say


...and Joseph sent word and invited Jacob his father and all his relatives to come to him, seventy‑five persons in all.” [Act 7:14]

75??? Or 70???
Remember in Judaism numbers mean something..

“Your fathers went down to Egypt seventy persons in all.” [Deuteronomy 10:22, Exodus 1:5, Genesis 46:27]


Steven said

Jacob went down to Egypt and there he and our fathers died. From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.[Acts 7:16]

Shechem is NOT where Jacob is buried. Jacob is buried in Hebron..

For his sons carried him (Jacob) into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, the field that Abraham bought as a burial plot from Ephron [Genesis 50:13]

But who was buried in Shechem?


It was Joseph who was buried in Shechem [Joshua 24:32] in a field purchased by Jacob from Emmor. [Genesis 33:19]

Why these errors???

Zanjan: "Why did christianity paint Jesus into the Jewish Scriptures?"

If they hadn't, somebody else would have had to fit those prophecies. Otherwise, the Jewish prophets would have looked like liars.

However you read those prophecies, they can be applied to the experiences of successive prophets - they all suffered at the hands of their enemies. We've never suffered the likes of what these pure souls have so how can we challenge how they say it felt?

Zanjan: Furthermore, the ancient Hebrew language was mostly lost. Moderns had to re-structure it in order to speak it so it would make sense.

Nothing like every Tom, Dick and Harry translating ancient scripture just because they think they can. This is why nobody agrees. An official, unified translation would solve that problem but it will never match the ancient exactly.

For that reason, one should allow for error - no original manuscripts means you can't hang on every word to the letter. To avoid disrespecting the sacred, one should be focusing on the spirit of what is being said, rather than where the T's are crossed.

amoregrowers: So basiclly your saying forget accuracy, good intentions is all we need?

If a passage was not a prophesy and someone mistranslates it to create a prophesy to valadate their beliefs,exactly WHICH spirit is it?

Jaguar Essence: Zanjan regurgitates nonsense.

Jaguar Essence: The Romans were at war with Judea and saw how the Jews couldn't be converted and wouldn't give in to imperialistic foreign pressure; this attribute was enviable.

In my perception when the Romans created Christianity as we know it today, they rooted in Judaism to attain the same attributes of unification as Jews have throughout history, and even though they were exiled from their home and their temple destroyed they continue to be a schatered nation in the exile not losing their identity and religion.

This motivated the Romans to create a Roman Empire under one religion with Judaic attributes of perseverance and unwilling to give in. The creation of Christianity was a genius political idea.

amoregrowers: Here is another...

Matthew 2:23 where we are told that “Jesus came and resided in a city called Nazareth that what was spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He shall be called a Nazarene.’”


There is no such prophesy in the OT.

Samson was a Nazarite. Which was an oath to abstain from alcahol and haircuts.

A Nazarene is someone from Nazareth.

Different spelling and different meaning.

When the Tankah OT was written im not even sure Nazareth existed..

DontNeedChrist:

Zanjan typed:
"the ancient Hebrew language was mostly lost. Moderns had to re-structure it in order to speak it so it would make sense."

Prove it.

DontNeedChrist:

So Zanjan is MIA on this so we can move on to the most recent topic. Matthew's "prophecy" of the nazarine that does not exist anywhere in Hebrew Scripture.

I would like to hear from christians exactly where this prophecy originates from. Anyone?

Zanjan: amore: "So basiclly your saying forget accuracy, good intentions is all we need? "

Actually, we don't really need those old books. We should know how to behave properly by now. OTH, if you feel that *You* need them, then you haven't learned the lessons they taught. Forget the letter - look at the lesson.

"someone mistranslates it to create a prophesy to valadate their beliefs,exactly WHICH spirit is it?"

ONE prophecy doesn't validate anyone's belief. There are people who think not a single prophecy has ever been fulfilled when all of them have been. When God delivers a revelation, the Revelator doesn't speak in a language no one can understand. It's the perfect delivery. It's a spiritual language - that's why it's edifying for all people, regardless of their tongue.

Zanjan: "Hebrew is not lost- it is alive and well."

Yes, it's been re-incarnated into a language that has grammar plus extra words that didn't exist in B.C.E. There's not a language on earth that hasn't greatly transformed from its ancient roots.

Hebrew can't be used when discussing science, certain art forms, numerous objects, many animals, and technology without peppering it with words, terms, and phrases IN another language.

"a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet."

In English, that doesn't make a lick of sense. For a start, punctuation wasn't invented until several centuries after Christ. Punctuation is so important, the meaning of the sentence can completely change without it. The meanings of many words have also changed.

Hebrew had no sentence or paragraph separation, and no upper and lower case letters - that would be problematic in any modern language. Same for ancient Greek. The Old Testament was written in both Hebrew and Aramaic, which had no vowels.

I'd suggest the oral conveyance of the Bible was more easily understood than the written form, for good reason.

All translations to another language must carry a modicum of interpretation because no language translates over identically, word for word.

Zanjan: So, tell me again - WHO has tampered with scripture??

Angry Beaver: Them damned atheists!!!

Zanjan: Maybe they should pray to God to send them a scripture in modern language. He could easily clear things up.

Then again, some people would want that scripture translated into Hebrew. That would be like trying to pour the ocean into a goat's bladder.

Jaguar Essence: @Zanjan
"So basiclly your saying forget accuracy, good intentions is all we need? "

Actually, we don't really need those old books.
You AREN'T a Jew, there's NO "we"

Jaguar Essence: @ Zanjan
The scriptures ARE clear enough for Jews, because there're written by Jews TO Jews, just as the Vedas are clear for Hindus.

The issue with individuals like yourself is that DON'T know Judaic sources of knowledge as a Jew, and want to see them as whatever you are. The Buddhist say, "IF you WANT to KNOW Buddha you MUST BECOME Buddha," meaning, you've to embody his thoughts, views, understanding, and knowledge in order to see and experience what he saw and experienced.

But you are an ignorant biased bigot with ethical dishonesty, you have NO ground to tell Jews what they need and what to do, because you have NO idea what they have to begin with. You have NO clue what Judaic sources of knowledge are saying; because in order for you to know them you have to have the views, knowledge, understanding, and thoughts of an educated religious Jew, which you DON'T.

This understanding of our Patriarch Abraham and his teachings have trickle down from generlation to generation, you have the audacity to assume that Jews have no clue what their sources of knowledge are saying to us about ourselves.

amoregrowers: @zanjan

Let me give you some examples of what Essence is saying.

The Torah to a JEW is the recieved wisdom of G-d.

This wisdom was recieved in a compressed format much like a .zip file

The Torah of Israel has many aspects that most Christians are completely unaware of. Like the fact the Torah is full of anagrams,puns,riddles, and gematria. So from here we can see that the Torah is much deeper then a bunch of rules.

Also its Text in the bibical Hebrew has these little crowns over some of the letters called Tagin. These are a whole story on their own.

This is very ancient, and very sacred. Jews do not play when it comes to keeping the sacred Holy and Pure.

If a Torah scroll has one error when its being copied it is trashed...

You see this MOST important document which is a CONTRACT/COVENANT with humanity, has been entrused to the children of Israel for safe keeping.

Now this Covenant which is G-ds wisdom also reveals the secrets of nature.

So unlike christianity the Torah is really a technology that can be applied like science and have the same results over and over. Thos technology is used for self transformation and to benifit humanity.

This Torah each letter of each word has a meaning and each story has four meanings PaRDeS. You can look that up...

So now we have the entire code of nature and creation, the entire timeline of events, given in a compressed form, but there is another side to this. Its called oral tradition which teaches the practical application of the knowledge recieved through Torah. This knowledge is more then we can grasp in these bodies.

So can you translate Hebrew...YES but you will most definatly lose the meaning and power of the original. Jews dont give up there inheritance so easy.

As said by Jesus... Jesus stated, "Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn around and tear you in pieces" (Matthew 7:6, HBFV).


So yes there is a reason to get upset when non Jews try to tell Jews what the scriptures mean. Jews were entusted for ALL OF US . So its foolish to think Jews have lost anything. Also, you ask why G-d does not give it in another language? Thats because the code of creation is written in Hebrew. Much like a website uses a programming code but you see it in its presented form not its coded form..

Hopefully now you see the foolishness in these endeavors to delegitimize Hebrew and Judaism...

Also funny that The G-d of the universe would have a child and want him to be raised a Jew learning Torah... Get it???

amoregrowers: Ok moving on..

Here is another. This one from Paul who is quoting Isaiah.

“The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” [Romans 11:26]

Now Isaiah

“A redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from transgression.” [Isaiah 59:20]

So does this savior come FROM , OR COME TO Zion?

Does he come to remove ungodliness, or does he come to those who have turned from their transgressions?

IMO Romans its saying only Jesus alone can remove ungodliness, and in Isaiah it is saying G-d comes to his children who have turned from their transgressions.....

Zanjan: Essence: "The scriptures ARE clear enough for Jews, because there're written by Jews TO Jews,:

The Torah wasn't written by Jews. There are other writings but, technically, not all of them were written by Jews either.

You see, Moses delivered the Torah to "The Children of Israel" - that's a *spiritual* name, which has nothing to do with race or ethnic background. They kept that name. The followers of Abraham and Moses came from everywhere, had skin of all colours, and spoke different languages. At no time did These Revelators deny anyone who believed in the ONE God, the same God as their forefathers believed in.

God delivers His Revelations to all mankind; those who accept live in the Kingdom of God.

No, I'm not a Jew - I'm one of the Children of Israel.

After Israel had split in two, then believers called themselves Jews - that is, 'Yehudi', meaning 'from the Kingdom of Judah'. These people had fallen out of favour with God.

Thus, Judah is gone. However, Israel is back.

"...... that DON'T know Judaic sources of knowledge...."

The SOURCE of all knowledge is God. He bestows wisdom on whomever He chooses. He has said you will never become Moses or Jesus. You are whatever God created you to be.

"you have NO idea what they have to begin with. "

I definitely know what they DON'T have.

Zanjan: @ amore, yes, all of the world's scriptures contain "code". This is NOT news.

If you've figured some of them out, then that knowledge will be expressed in action, which bears fruit. Knowledge was intended to be used because it rides on love. Scriptural codes were meant to be understood by true believers in God, not unbelievers. Codes guard the gems of wisdom and God gives the keys to whomever He pleases.

Only Revelators can have knowledge that man doesn't have; they don't utter it or write it down, else it wouldn't be a secret anymore. They might allude to it but is too obscure for those in His own dispensation. A future Revelator may speak it and explain it.

Claiming one has secret knowledge of God, of the other worlds, is a dead giveaway that one is a few bricks short of a full load. There's no such thing as "esoteric" knowledge.

With all that extra knowledge of creation you claim Jews know, I haven't seen that they've created anything unusual or more often than a normal person does.

All that any man can know, came from God's Revelators.

By the way, each letter and word of Baha'i Revelation has 70 meanings. We're forbidden to interpret scripture to others. That way is damnation.

I've never asked why God doesn't give scripture in another language - that's because He HAS, and quite a few times at that.

Zanjan: As for your citations, amore, I see that both are true.

You remember during the Exodus, God spoke to Moses and told him he would remove their enemies ahead of them. So, when they got to the promised land, they wouldn't have to worry about big armies, specifically the Egyptians and anyone else who would persecute them. The Deliverer had come TO them.

You know, yourself, that the heart must be receptive. When the Jews abandoned God and fell to pagan ways, worshiping multiple gods, God showed His wrath.......His Fire came FROM a place, burning away the impurities from His people - those who were remorseful. Once chastened, the Redeemer brought them back.

A Revelator comes to heal the sick, to rescue those in chains, to help those who can't help themselves. Those who are healthy, strong and free, didn't need Him.

In short, it depends where you're standing, whether He comes from or goes to.

Zanjan: I'm sure Paul used more than one prophecy when he was teaching.

"“A Star shall come out of Jacob; a Scepter shall rise out of Israel” (Numbers 24:17, NKJV).

" “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel” (Micah 5:2, NKJV"

Since Judah doesn't exist anymore, I think we can safely say that prophecy must have been fulfilled by somebody before Roman Judea turned into Palestine.

amoregrowers: Although one day it might, Palestine doesn’t exist today. An independent Arab Palestine has never existed. It didn’t exist under the Ottoman rule or the British Mandate or, in the end, under a United Nations Partition Plan that was rejected by every single Arab state and Palestinian leadership. It didn’t exist when the Palestinians were governed by governments in Jordan and Egypt (a time when there was virtually no international pressure to create an independent Palestine) and it didn’t come into existence when the Arab states rejected Israel’s peace gestures after the 1967 and 1973 wars.

Yasser Arafat ultimately rejected peace in every negotiation he ever participated in, embracing Intifada instead. Palestine didn’t exist after Israel granted Gaza autonomy and the populace turned to the terrorists of Hamas, and it won’t exist until Hamas and Fatah stop engaging in and supporting terrorism and drop their absurd demands for Jerusalem and the Right of Return.

Palestine is not recognized as a state by Israel, the United States, Switzerland, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, and most of the European Union, among others.

As a consequence of the Bar Kokhba revolt, in 135 CE the region was renamed and merged with Roman Syria to form Syria Palaestina by the victorious Roman Emperor Hadrian. A large part of Judea was included in Jordanian West Bank between 1948 and 1967 (i.e., the "West Bank" of the Kingdom of Jordan).[3][4]The term Judea as a geographical term was revived by the Israeli government in the 20th century as part of the Israeli administrative district name Judea and Samaria Area for the territory generally referred to as the West Bank.[5]


Not trying to hurt your feeling. Hopefully one day everyone can belong to their own state. That is not today. Many good Palestinians out there.