The Truth about the Talmud

Zanjan
Zanjan: A series of posts in the religion forum about the Talmud were deleted because no discussion was desired by the Original Poster. The only posts permitted were those which agreed 100% with the OP. With more topics about the Talmud, the same continued, with a different Original Poster.

What then is the OP’s agenda?

If said behavior is condoned, it only serves to instill prejudice and promote contempt. A discussion includes all points of view so it can go in any direction. The idea here is to eradicate public ignorance and eliminate misconceptions about the Talmud.

Whereas, religious dialogue seeks the truth respectfully and may use any source and fact in an effort to attain it, without engaging in oppression, head-bashing, or criticism of an individual contributor’s personal character.

For those who have an interest in reality and religious dialogue, I invite you to freely share in that exploration. Maybe we’ll discover what was lost.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Amore wrote in another topic: “So apparently Rome considered the Talmud a valid and recognizable threat.”

No, not at all. The Pope and his crew were motivated by something else.

The Talmud (Mishnah only) wasn’t translated until very recently – first to German (the uncensored version) in 1909, followed by the English (1918). That was only available to Jews. The public wasn’t able to access it in English or other languages until 1969 but you couldn’t buy that in any book stores in America. Finally, it was published on the Internet sometime during the last decade.

Therefore, it’s amusing to think the church censored and burnt editions of the Talmud because they feared it would influence Christians, which was probably the excuse they used. Few Gentiles were able to read the language and the majority of the world was illiterate until the 20th century.

You can see there were no worries about the Talmud escaping into the wild.

A Gentile wouldn’t look into the Talmud as a source of *spiritual* knowledge, considering it was written during the two times when God was initially displeased with the Jews. Their interest would be in ancient cultural practices, many of which nobody understood because it wasn’t clear what was meant. Or, in my own case, to decide for myself what Jewish thinking was like, specifically after the appearance of Jesus Christ. Without dates for comparison, I found that impossible.

When the censoring and burning occurred, the only threat to the Christians were the Muslims. You might recall this was the time of the Crusades, which the Christians lost and subsequently were just as nasty to everyone, including Christians, themselves.

Reiterating, the attack began with an excommunicated Jew in 1242. The only motivation to suppress the Talmud was intent to destroy Jewish communities. Such is the product of ignorance and vicious contempt. The wicked will use anything at their disposal to achieve their ends.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The short lesson for everyone is always shun the person who’s been excommunicated from any religion. That decision was never made lightly. It’s one thing to question a text, quite another to foment strife.
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alexgabe9999
(Post deleted by staff 4 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: I appreciate your thoughts and feelings. So far, the only places for dialogue are in academic forums. However, anyone interested in discussing religion needs to develop those skills but it won't happen on Wire unless the moderator can be trusted not to abuse their position.

I, too, doubt the credentials of some posters; I pay no mind to personalities since the search for truth should be pure, not entertaining attraction, reservations, or repulsion in the heart. This permits the topic to flow where it needs to go. Truth can come from the strangest places, in the most roundabout way.

The Spirit is like the wind - we only need to raise our sails and let it drive us.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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alexgabe9999
(Post deleted by staff 4 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Truth #1.
Very few religious Jews study the Talmud. They’re informed but most aren’t scholars or members of the clergy. Due to antiquity, they don’t deem it as having practical application in modernity. Orthodox Jews are into it – they’re viewed as a radical, time-challenged sect yet Jews are known to be very tolerant, easily embracing diversity.

Truth #2.
All of God’s religions have their own courts of religious law (a panel of judges); these deal with things such as marriage, divorce and membership. It settles personal disputes, councils the confused, and disciplines troublesome members. Essentially, the court is the administrative center the community, charged with ensuring order and consistency of operation.

Truth #3.
Occasionally, religious law is in conflict with civil law; the religious court aims to satisfy requirements of both orders of law. If this is impossible, the court must give way and follow the civil law for the sake of God, good will, and peace. The Talmud devotes itself to these decisions.

Truth # 4.
The Talmud contains two things - a collection of reporters notes on religious law (Mishna) + rabbinical commentaries on those notes (Gemara). In other words, the Talmud” is a synopsis and analysis of the Mishna. The Mishna can be seen as by-laws, having to be made to cover specific scenarios/conditions not mentioned in the scriptures. Understand that “by-laws” are meant to be temporary. Each case has to be considered on its own merits and conditions change.

Truth # 5.
The “Jerusalem” Talmud was produced by a second century Rabbinic School in Israel. It was forbidden to write it down – there were sensible reasons for that – so it remained an oral tradition for centuries. Later, the Babylonian Talmud was produced (independently) by another Rabbinic school in Babylonia. Again, this was conveyed by oral tradition.

Truth #6.
By the time it was safe to write down, this was a major undertaking. The Jerusalem Talmud, due to the ancient mixture of languages, was difficult to read to make sense – portions were missing, some were only fragments, and other parts were lost forever. It was redacted then edited and compiled in 350 – 400 AD. The Babylonian Talmud was compiled in 500 AD with some editing afterwards.

Truth #7.
The Talmud is NOT sacred scripture – it was developed by Jewish clergy. Some insist on calling it Holy but that’s personal opinion. Humans aren’t infallible……only the Revelators are.

Truth #8.
The Talmud doesn’t contain esoteric knowledge. There’s actually no such thing. It was never a means of promulgating the Jewish Religion or helping society. When the Talmud went to print, all Jews had a copy in their homes to guide their daily life. That informs us they were all literate and could understand it without a college background.

Truth # 9.
Inasmuch as we honour past sages, factually, their wisdom is rather primitive compared to moderns. No offense intended - they simply didn’t have the resources to develop a broad scope of knowledge about the world around them, which you’d need for depth of spiritual insight. They may have been well-studied in Jewish books but we moderns are far better prepared. Rulers aren’t necessarily among the Learned.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The Original Poster, claiming to be a Jew, posted that I had no right to comment since I'm not Jewish, and that my posts were hateful and Anti-Semitic. Really?

Well, the OP didn’t offer any background information (as above) or official links (those were available) in an effort to assist understanding or find agreement. I bided my time, waiting for the OP to take the lead, but nope. Nada.

Still, I dislike to see a lot of typing and important information wasted.
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The flying Squirrel
The flying Squirrel: Yeah I agree with 7 zanjan, How people Throw around this charge of Anti Semitism , Is beyond me , But thats another story
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, there's advantages and disadvantages to everything so one needs a discerning eye.

When caught doing wrong, the desperate will use their "difference", be it skin colour, gender, addiction, tribe or whatever, as the knob on the escape hatch. It's a popular tactic. However, I have no such leverage. My story is sink or swim, man.

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chronology
chronology: An interesting political insight into the Talmudic writings Zan is the view of Jesus. The Talmudic schools were almost certainly a Mind Control operation by Babylonians. Banking and Religion was how Babylon controlled the Empire it ran. So when the Jews returned from captivity they were virtually mind controlled zombies for Babylon.
The Talmudic schools hatred of Jesus appears to have been because they saw Him as, at best, a useful idiot of Rome, at worst, a Roman Agent trying to break the Talmudic (read into that the Parthian Empire's) control, on everyday life of the Jewish people.
The murder of James is the most telling in this conspiracy theory. James was murdered while the Romans were preoccupied with administrative work. Roman families in the Administration were packing their belongings and visiting Rome for a funeral. While they were diverted with all the travelling planning, quick as a flash the Talmudic schools had James murdered. In the Parthian Empire which dealt with Judea they probably sighed with relief when James was dead 'good riddance' . James had been a firm supporter of the Roman Administration.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I agree the Babylonians had a powerful influence on the Jews. Contrary to common belief, when they were exiled, they didn't have any books to bring with them, barely more than the clothes on their backs as they had to leave in a hurry.

Regular Jews didn't read the Talmud until it was put into print. The main reason it was forbidden to write down was so it couldn't be challenged. Therefore, when the Rabbis did discus Jesus, regular Jews wouldn't know what they said.

Meanwhile, Scientific tests have proven that human memory of any event fails 50% in accuracy after the first year. If followers are not writing it down, you get inaccuracies.

Given that there's a fair bit of confusion over which James is mentioned in scripture, no one really knows for certain who killed Jesus's brother. Text accounts for James, Son of Zebedee, as an apostle; whereas, it states James, brother of Jesus, wasn't an apostle. There were three different versions of his martyrdom. We'll never know for sure.

Besides, if one is martyred for their faith, it doesn't matter who commits the killing. The focus is on the person who stood faithful to the end.
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alexgabe9999
(Post deleted by staff 4 years ago)
chronology
chronology: As ever interesting comments Zan.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Alex, you need to correct the people who told you that. The first five Books of the Old Testament is the Torah - this was delivered by Moses to the Children of Israel. That's indisputable.

Once they'd made the Exodus, Moses told His followers to set up a panel of judges to deal with small disputes - they were to apply the Mosaic law in their decisions.

The Talmud came into being (orally) about 250 years later - this began as a record of those decisions by the judges.

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alexgabe9999
(Post deleted by staff 4 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Hmm, what country are you from? Or should I say what city? I've never heard of such a thing. You'll find Jewish websites all over the place. If you have Jewish friends, you can ask them, they don't mind.

The only way to truth is to do your own, independent research. There's a long history of the blind following the blind - that seems absurdly out of whack these days, given we all have such quick and easy access to real information.

You can find the Babylonian Talmud in English here:

https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.2a.1?lang=bi
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Does "High Church" imply there's a "Low Church"?
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chronology
chronology: Zan. The Church of England is only one church. However there is a joke about 'High and Crazy' ' Middle and Hazy' ' Low and Lazy' .

This refers to the very ritual based section of the Church of England, which is virtually indistinguishable from the Catholic church. The middle Church refers to churches which are in the middle ground of any disputes. The low Church refers to churches which have a very broad mind indeed. They have no problems with Gay marriage or evolution or joint services with Hindu or Muslim people etc. The practices of the low churches are almost always never Officially endorsed by Canterbury.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Wow, that's weird. Who wants to join the low-brows? I was never fond of the class system; to see it in religion takes me aback. You know, when language changes, the people do too.

Here, there's a church called the United Church - fits your last description. Maybe they thought they could unite people if they condoned every perspective under the sun. Started out really well but, in the end, it slipped over the edge. Too much grease, I reckon.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: That takes me to the Talmud. On first glance, one's impression might be "how controlling they are!" Yet, my experience with religion tells me these statements are responses to members' own questions, since they wanted to do things right; there is no mindfulness without focus.

Unlike the Apostles Creed, the original Shema (uttered by Moses) remains the most beautiful statement of faith ever:

"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord".

In my own religion, we recite a short statement too, morning and evening; however, faith is a given so this is said for gratitude and praise of God.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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E s s e n c e
(Post deleted by E s s e n c e 3 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: That can be said of members in all religions. Humans are fallible - when they interpret scriptures, they run afoul of the truth and stubbornly argue about it. When no one "wins" the argument, they split off into different sects - a sect for every idea, desire and interpretation out there.

There's no better proof of confusion! Yet there is only one God, the Lord of ALL religions.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The purpose of religion is to peacefully unite people in a common faith; it aims to establish order and tranquility among the people. This can't be achieved by focusing on differences and debate over who's the smartest.

One should strive to acquire the divine virtues, which are universal and timeless - that's what religion teaches first, beginning in childhood. ONLY through these come understanding; anyone who attains them will agree with the other on spiritual matters, regardless of religion.
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E s s e n c e
(Post deleted by Zanjan 3 years ago)
Zanjan
Zanjan: Jaguar, I deleted your post because you made nasty accusations against the posters. No one says you have to agree but you do have to choose your words with respect.
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