The Truth about the Talmud (Page 4)

Zanjan
Zanjan: Perhaps, XP, we'll just have to wait for a variety of Jews to make a contribution.
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: one should not consider their personal jabs to be so important that they must remain for eternity. this is vain. if you want to delete personal jabs or bitter salty remarks especially if they don't add to the topic of the thread I see no issue in removing them since they beget more nonsense, including myself should I make any jabs, it is up to the thread host to decide what is appropriate for their own thread, just look at dnc's threads they are full of deletions, you don't see anyone over there complaining about it.



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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: the other thing I would like the other side to answer for me is what is the oldest Jewish oral tradition before it was written down.


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Zanjan
Zanjan: Would that include the story of Job? I mean, according to some modern scholars, he was a real person, a gentile prophet from Edom; but, the book is impossible to date.

I respect that the Talmud includes some back and forth between Rabbis on the subject but that suggests even the Jews didn't know the origin. It does seem to be very, very old.
Here's an interesting commentary:

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/MAGAZINE-who-really-wrote-the-book-of-job-1.5434183
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: there is a clue in how old he lived.
(Edited by Apokalupto)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I wouldn't go by age because God said (in Genesis) the flesh of man is fixed to a maximum of 120 years. For me, those over-extended years (in all the begats) apply to the length of time the Spirit of the Personage mentioned lived in the hearts of believers. That would closely align with the average length of a Revelator's dispensation.

All Revelators of God mention previous Revelators and Prophets to glorify their Holy Names and confirm the truth of their reality. Moses's list is the longest; then He goes on to mention spiritually significant souls up to His own time. He didn't mention Job. Unless Job, a stainless soul, had a different name while he was alive, I take it that he must have lived after Moses.

Apparently, there are Greek and Latin versions of the Book of Job that contain all sorts of details, including his genealogy - that's not in the Hebrew Bible. I don't trust any of it and neither do many scholars. Just like today, the ancients had their share of hoaxers.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: Job 42:16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

after God blessed Job's latter end more than the former he lived 140 years more. the scriptures do not say how old he was before that, he could have been 60 70 or 80 we don't know, but it's very possible that the years of Job were 200 or more years which tells me that he lived shortly after the flood.

a good portion of your post is incomprehensible to me namely because it's mixing foreign ideas not found in the Bible which causes me to be lost. having said that we know that Moses was not trying to name or list revelators, lol, because that's not the point of a genealogy. Jews and Christians don't believe that, the scriptures never say that that was the point of the list of names, nor can It be proven from scripture, and neither do scholars, it's likely to be a hoax.

(Edited by Apokalupto)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: " it's mixing foreign ideas not found in the Bible which causes me to be lost"

Spend more time pondering - it will come to you out of the clouds eventually.

"Foreign ideas" sounds like a euphemism for "unknown variety". In my experience, God hates uniformity, mental manipulation, and oppression.

The Bible, consisting of 80 books, contains a large variety of thought; very little came directly from Moses and Jesus by comparison. That's because God has permitted human expression. God encourages reason. If we didn't recognize that, there wouldn't be any scholars.

Where God doesn't cover the ground on my behalf, I'm forced to use my own mind, starting with common sense. Of course, I wouldn't expect anyone to know MY mind unless I tell them. When I do, it can't be foreign anymore, right?

What would you learn by sticking with the familiar?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: As for Moses naming all the begats - oddly, they were only males, no females, siblings or cousins. Geneology must include the whole family tree. That can get very complex when a man has more than one wife and more than one son. What if he had only daughters? Common sense tells me there's more to this than meets the eye.

What if it's a spiritual inheritance? Do you naturally recall one of your biological forefathers who lived 210 years ago? Must have been quite the guy! Do tell us THAT story. What if 10 out of Job's 20 children were spiritual children? If that's true, would it change your life?

Meanwhile, I'm not bothered when someone doesn't agree. What bothers me is any attempt to suppress or prevent exposure to non-hateful ideas. These are threats to the intellect.

I believe we have the inalienable right to seek out truth independently - it's just a matter of exercising that right as a responsibility to our own soul, whatever the cost. God, Himself, has encouraged this. As you know, what you do with truth is on you. Right or wrong, I'm not willing to pass the buck to someone else.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: I'm not telling you that you can't believe things that are not in the Bible, but as for me I'm not going to get my word of God-spiritual meat from the thin upper air in the clouds. it won't hold me zanjan, and if there's nothing to eat I'm going to get dizzy and disoriented. water fasting was never my strength.

you believe whatever you want, you talk about the Bible and scholars, you even vaguely mention what the Bible says sometimes "his flesh shall be 120 years" in order to orientate one in the right direction by using the word itself, but then you turn around and insert basically anything you want in there that's just not in there not even arguably in there. that's low, and if I am anything vain I'm too good for that.


I like to keep my feet grounded, I can't turn on a dime with you, I can't speak out of both sides of my mouth and nor can I tolerate it. this could have been an interesting conversation on Job, but stepping into the mist and using pure imagination and following you down the rabbit hole with all the swirly colors isn't really my thing. I honestly have better things to do.

(Edited by Apokalupto)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "water fasting was never my strength."

Nor is it anyone else's. You're not supposed to consume or drink anything when fasting - try it, you'll find it's much, much easier.

I wouldn't call the begats "spiritual meat". Genesis is an *introduction* to spiritual matters.

Not much was expected of the ancients and that's commensurate with how much they produced. They were underdeveloped so, one should keep that in mind when reading. I can hardly bear to think about all that Moses had to put up with - so much patience and forbearance in the face of such hard learners!

All I have to say about Job is his troubles are mild. He whined too much, don't you think?

Anyway, this topic is about the Talmud so I wouldn't want to digress for too long.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Please share with us your extensive knowledge regarding the Talmud. (I ask this knowing I won't get a straight/direct answer.)

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Well, that would be the same thing as asking me to share science with you. One needs a starting point - maybe you could suggest one.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

You started this thread. You titled it the "truth" about the Talmud. What is the basis for this supposed truth you seem to know about?

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Zanjan
Zanjan: DNC, my aim in this topic wasn't to address the content, per se, but to correct mistaken notions the public has about the Talmud. Perhaps you have a "mistaken notion" you want to bring up since, so far, I've done most of the muscle work here.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

I'm asking about your credentials. How do you correct mistaken notions? What is your expertise on the Talmud? Please elaborate.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: I've explained that previously. Anyone could have objected to those facts about the Talmud I posted but they didn't.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: XP had asked "the other side" about the oldest Jewish tradition before it was written down. You didn't contribute, maybe you'd like to respond to that now.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

You're not answering my question. Forget it.

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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: Please share with us your extensive knowledge regarding the Gospel. (I ask this knowing I won't get a straight/direct answer.)

I'm asking about your credentials. How do you correct mistaken notions? What is your expertise on the New Testament? Please elaborate.

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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Never claimed to be an expert on the NT. Stop stalking me in these forums like a lost puppy.

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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: *Xrusaoros Pegasos thumbs up his own comment*
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: no one here has claimed to be an expert on the talmud. I came here in commented on zanjan's thread and you followed, if you're touchy you can leave or you can stay and answer questions but don't complain.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

She created a PUBLIC thread titled the "truth" about the Talmud. Simply asking what her expertise, credentials or any other education she has on the so-called truth. I asked HER a question. Not you. Feel free to butt out anytime.

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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: they know that they have a weak position in maintaining that the talmud has any high authority that's why they don't say anything about it never have and they never will, and nor do we need them to, if you want to know something it's on the internet, it's public information.


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