Seeking jesus? On the off chance god exists and wants to send me to hell? (Page 3)

theHating: Are On

shadowline: The Catholic Church believes and teaches redemption through Christ. That is Christian, whether you happen to like the way they do it or not. The Pope does not "give God advice". No one can do that. The Catholic Church is devoted to the task all Christians are engaged in - understanding Scripture. They've just been at it ten times longer than anyone else.

"Sir Loin" is what is commonly called a "bigot". I didn't think they were welcome on this site, but, live and learn.

Sir Loin: No, a bigot is one who believes his way or group is superior and forces it onto others. A catholic in other words

Angry Beaver:

theHating:

shadowline: No, a bigot is someone who repeats prejudicial mantras about recognizable groups in his society in order to promote hatred of them. On the order of "The catholic church is not christian, it is a cult of greedy old pedowrastes."

Not uncommonly, bigots can also not spell.

Sir Loin: Don't you know what a pedowraste is?

Sir Loin: Google catholic priest for definition.

theHating: Catholicism is dumb and 100% will make you and your kids mentally retarded and subjugate women.

shadowline: I have never, as it happens, met a Catholic who struck me as "mentally retarded". If the chances of a Catholic's religion making him, or her, that, were "100%", I should think I'd have met at least a few examples. I haven't. And I'm guessing "theHating" hasn't either.

As for "pedowrastes", there is no such word in the English language.

theHating: But ya'll definitely subjugate women.

Didn't see you object to that one

Angry Beaver: all about the subjugation!

Sir Loin: OK, I was using the original correct spelling, it's been modified by common usage to pederaste

shadowline: What would be an example of Catholicism's "subjugating" women? I'm curious. Subjugating. That is no small word.

Sir Loin: You must be joking! Where are the women in leadership positions?

shadowline: Heads of religious orders and religious houses. Instructors and school principals. Women are not in positions requiring holy orders because it is a Christian belief that ministry is a male task.

And while it may be objectionable from a non-Christian point of view that women are not in leadership positions calling for holy orders, I would hardly call that "subjugation". That is absurd hyperbole.

Sir Loin: I was referring to what you call holy orders. Where are the female priests, cardinals, popes, bishops?
Catholicism is not christian, it is antichristian idol worship

shadowline: Catholicism is a manifestation - as it happens, the oldest and largest one - of belief in salvation through Christ. That is Christian, whether you like the way they go about it or not. And no one, and nothing, other than the God of the Bible is worshipped in Catholicism.

There are no female priests, bishops, cardinals, or popes, and there never have been any, because it is a belief as old as the Christian religion that ministry is a male task. The priest represents the faithful before God, and, in all humility, God before the faithful, and to do the latter the priest must embody the Bible's way of presenting God to us, as Father, and not as Mother. God incarnate was male, and all his chosen ministers were male - a compelling example of how to select for the priesthood. St Paul says that women do not preside, and they do not preach, in Christian assembly.

The Catholic Church is not alone in standing by this ancient tradition. The Eastern Orthodox Church also regards ministry as a male task, and for the same reasons. There have been great women of the Church, like St Theresa of Avila, administrator, reformer, specialist in devotional exercise and discipline, to whom it never even occurred that they should be priests, for the simple reason that they believed in the Christian religion. They didn't play with it.

This isn't "subjugation" of any kind at all, unless nature is "subjugating" men by not allowing them to give birth. That is a task that women perform for the sake of all of humanity. Priesthood is a task that men perform in the same spirit. This is belief, based in Scripture, and tradition, as old as the Christian religion itself.

Angry Beaver: And who decided that only men can represent christ? Oh yeah, the men
Priesthood = holy men's club, nothing more.
Did jesus say "thou shalt not have women clergy"?
Man made restriction = exclusion by gender

shadowline: Jesus didn't say "homosexuality is wrong" either, but all Christians (i.e. all sincere ones who really look to the Bible for their moral interpretation of life) believe that it is. They believe that because they look to the whole New Testament as the source and authority in Christianity, not only to the words of Christ.

I have just explained to you how reading of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, results in the belief that priesthood is a male task. That belief has only given way in recent decades when the Christian religion has been faltering and shrinking, at least in the Western world. It was accepted without question, including by women, throughout the history of Christianity until then. That is because real belief points to it, not because society was patriarchal. If you need more clarification you can look up an essay by C S Lewis called "Priestesses in the Church", which explains the matter better than I can.

And I must say, if you think the priesthood is a "holy men's club" then you are acknowledging that its members...are holy.

Sir Loin: Shadow, wrong wrong and wrong.
The catholic church is not the oldest christian church. heck it's not even Christian! The Coptic Church is oldest and following it, the Orthodox Churches but even they are hardly Christian now.
St Paul didn't say women should not minister, he said they should remain quiet in church and not chatter amongst themselves.
Constantine decided which books should remain in the bible and discarded any which showed women to be in leadership or pastoral roles because this fitted with his mysoginistic beliefs.

Angry Beaver: Yeah, what Loin said!

Sir Loin: Where, in the bible does it say to pray to saints?

shadowline: Once again, the Catholic Church is a community of believers in redemption through Christ. That makes it a Christian community, whatever you may think of its differences with other Christian communities.

The Orthodox Churches did not become separate from the original, apostolic - i.e. the Catholic - Church until the eleventh century. They were originally simply the eastern portion of that original church, the church which became co-extensive with the Roman world. That church took time to form, but, it was certainly in existence by the late first century. That's why we know who its leaders were, and that is why the early fathers refer to it as "Catholic".

The Coptic Church is probably as old as the Catholic, although the legend that it was founded by St Mark is probably just legend. St Mark was too busy accompanying Peter to have had time to travel to Egypt and found a church there. But it is indeed a very ancient church. In origin, it did not have the differences with other forms of Christianity that it has now, any more than the Orthodox did. Honour to it. It is having a tough time today, in its Muslim home.

As to St Paul, he said this: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:11-12). That may mean that they shouldn't chatter among themselves, but, it has also to be seen as including presiding and preaching, which is why women didn't do those things.

And Constantine was not a church authority, and did not decide anything to do with the Canon of Scripture. That was in fact not decided until long after Constantine was dust. He died in 337 AD. The Canon of Scripture was first fully established at the Council of Hippo in 393 AD.

Sir Loin: Constantine was pope and holy roman emperor. He presided over the 1st council of Nicaea in 325CE at which anything not agreeing with the catholic church was deleted from the bible. The Coptic Church was founded in what is now Ethiopia but I don't know much about it.