NOT a messianic prophecy (Page 4)

DontNeedChrist:

Let’s look at YOUR words shall we?

“Zera” can be singular or plural depending on the context.”

BINGO!

What is the context?
"And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed (offspring) and between her seed (offspring). He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

You claim via the context the Hebrew word ZERA is singular. If that’s the case then in the same verse the word ZERA repeated when referring to the serpent has to be singular as well. So Eve’s seed refers to one person born in the future and the serpent’s seed refers to one future born serpent using your logic. You claim that singular future person is the messiah/jesus. Who is the singular future serpent? The devil? Son of the devil? Great great great grandson of the devil? Makes NO sense. Doesn’t fit. So much for the singularity of zera in this context. It's obviously plural. Epic and ignorant fail on your part once again.

Zera in this context is PLURAL. The zera (seed, offspring) of Eve, aka ALL OF HUMANITY shall have enmity towards the zera (seed, offspring) aka ALL SNAKES/SERPENTS from that moment on. That is the curse the serpent merited. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Take off your yoshke glasses so you can read clearly.

Oh, and let’s look at your article that uses the GREEK LXX as the source by some no-name christian author Jack Collins of the Tyndale Bulletin. Yes THAT Jack Collins. Everybody knows good ‘ole Jack. Turns out Jack is anything but Jewish and writes all kinds of propaganda about the “Old Testament” (red flag#1) and leverages his discussions using GREEK translations which are completely and utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Big surprise. It’s non-stop farcical christian websites you keep parading in our faces to prove us wrong. What christians say and what the Greek says means nothing. We don't care. We don't have to care. We’re discussing Hebrew scripture (NOT GREEK TRANSLATIONS) so find an authoritative Hebrew/Jewish source, that’s a challenge you’ll never meet. You embarrass yourself with every post.

And I have to address this gem:
“Genesis 3:15 tells us what the Messiah is chosen to do. He is chosen to “stomp the the snake” and undo the Fall! That is the “secret” that has been known from the beginning!”

Precisely what was undone? Death still exists. Sin still exists. As a matter of fact, since there are more people living on this earth at this time in all of history, logically that means there is MORE death and MORE sin than ever before just by using basic mathematics. Your so-called messiah changed nothing regarding death, sin or “the fall.” And nowhere in Hebrew Scripture is it foretold that is what the Messiah’s purpose is. Christianity hijacked the Jewish concept of the Messiah, made him a god yet he failed to even begin fulfilling the messianic agenda just like you fail to make any reasonable sense with your immature posts.

This is all concrete proof that Genesis 3:15 is anything but a messianic prophecy. It’s simply the consequences/punishment of the disobedience of the characters in the narrative. We read and take lessons from the story and apply them to our lives. We don't dissect every single passage looking for Moshiach references. When you do that you miss the true meaning of the writings as you have demonstrated here.

Genesis 3:15 is not messianic, no messiah, no jesus, no devil, no way. Stop wasting bandwidth already.

E s s e n c e: DNC, that's is what exactly this clowns do, the use Christian sources claiming they are Jewish. The guy gave a link about Rabbis that converted to Christianity, there was ZERO records of this people beyond the website.

This people are so desperate that their only resource is to use pseudo technology information without verifying; just like they do with their religion, they believe first without knowing and then seek the knowledge that suits their narrative.

You have NAILED all the points, thank you for sharing this information and exposing the lies done by the hijackers of Judaic writings.

JX Amaro:
Re: Jaguar
Jaguar’s comments are self-evidently too stupid to bother responding to – just read it! However, as Jaguar suggests I am a liar, a response is in order. And we shall discover who the real liar is!

Jaguar is referring to a debate on the “Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus” thread and the relevant post is at the top of page 15. There I give a source with a list of Jewish rabbis who have converted to Christianity. Here it is:
http://www.aharithayamim.co.il/rabbis-that-converted-to-christianity/

In that post I noted that one of those listed had written a book on the subject of converting from Judaic Rabbi to Christian – thus verifying the objective truth of the claim. All Jaguar had to do was go to Amazon, but Jaguar did not. Lazy? Frightened to see the truth? Here is a link:
https://www.amazon.com/STORY-MODERN-MISSIONARY-ANCIENT-PEOPLE-ebook/dp/B00E6XU232/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=story+of+a+modern+missionary+to+an+ancient+people&qid=1623322559&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

That OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE alone proves that I am not a liar. Moreover, at the first link all you have to do is press on the links contained within the article or do a search on the names! Since Jaguar is too lazy or too stupid to figure this out, here are three more objective and verifiable “proofs”:

Rabbi Chil Slostowski:
https://jewishroots.net/library/testimonials/rabbi_chil_slostowski_testimony.html

Rabbi Max Werheimer:
https://www.jewishtestimonies.com/en/rabbi-max-wertheimer-an-jewish-orthodox-rabbi-finds-his-messiah-1863-1941/

Rabbi Charles Freshman:
https://whohasbelieved.net/testimonies/rabbi-charles-freshman/
And here is his autobiography:
https://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Rev-Charles-Freshman-Theological-ebook/dp/B07DVZG8Q1/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=rabbi+charles+freshman&qid=1623321739&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

Thus I have produced OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE with tangible, verifiable proof (the physical books). I’ll leave it to the reader to decide if Jaguar is just lazy and stupid or a liar.

Oh, and one more point: If you want to know who “hijacked” the OT/TNK scriptures, just study Rabbi Akiva and the Talmud! But that is a subject for another thread.

JX Amaro:
Re: DNC
Gee, what a feisty response! But does it contain any winning content, or is it just “sound and fury signifying nothing”? Yeah, it’s sound and fury signifying nothing. Let’s examine.

Observe that DNC just won’t let the “zera” thing go. We have seen this movie before. Observe that while he offers vomit-spitting dogma, I recuse myself and cite sources. In the article on “zera” the author analyzes EVERY use of “zera” in the OT/TNK. And his conclusions are based on that! Nevermind, says DNC. The writer must be a Christian, so THE FACTS DON’T MATTER. Again, we have seen this movie before.

Also observe that the Septuagint translates zera in the singular for the one who will crush the snake; but DNC discounts this, too. Nevermind that the Septuagint was translated by Jewish rabbis for the benefit of Jews long before Christianity ever existed – FACT. Nope, those 70 Jewish rabbis were all drunk or ignorant. Only DNC knows the truth, so THE FACTS DON’T MATTER!!! LOL. This is laughable.

Then observe that the Targum I cited – written by non-Christian Jews! – also reads 3:15 as messianic with the messiah undoing the curse of the snake – death. This, too, is an empirical FACT. Again, the evidence is thrown out. Why? Because DNC says so. THE FACTS DON’T MATTER!

Key Takeaway: DNC never lets OBJECTIVE FACTS get in the way of his ignorant raving and drooling. LOL.

Frankly, I’m quite satisfied to stand on the substance of my above posts. If DNC and his friends want to view the Garden of Eden story as just a story about a garden, a snake and an apple, they can do so. But they myopically miss everything. They miss that Adam and Eve were given a LAW (not to eat from the Tree of Good and Evil). They miss that Adam and Eve were given a LAND (Eden). They miss that Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the Tree of Life (giving them ETERNAL LIFE). They miss that they were then expelled from the LAND for reason of violating the LAW thus losing ETERNAL LIFE. And they miss that God tells them that someday in the future one of their descendants will crush the snake (which caused their fall, their loss of eternal life)...

Now everyone but brainwashed Judaics will sense a type of “deja vu” when they reflect on the history of Israel in regard to Adam and Eve. Like A&E, Israel was given a law (at Sinai). Like A&E, Israel was given a land (Canaan). Like A&E, they violated the law (turning to Baal worship – ie, they fell to the temptation of the snake). Like A&E, they were expelled EASTWARD (not coincidental) from the land they had been given. And like A&E, they were given a prophecy about one of their offspring – the Messiah.

At this point, it isn’t very hard for any reasonably intelligent person to connect the dots. And it isn’t very hard to see that the Messiah corresponds to the one who will crush the snake. And it isn’t very hard to see that the Messiah has to restore that lost eternal life. And it isn’t very hard to see that that’s what Christianity is all about! The Messiah dies for the sins of Humanity so as to undo the Fall of Adam and Eve.

Through death, the Messiah crushes the snake. And this restores eternal life to believers; and this condemns the wicked in...“The World to Come.”

In not not picking up on this (that the one who will crush the snake is the Messiah), DNC and friends are either dishonest or in denial. Maybe both. It is OBVIOUS that the Eden story parallels Israel and points to the Messiah. And therefore, it is OBVIOUS that Genesis 3:15 is messianic.

E s s e n c e: Hahaha no worth responding, what a joke. This guy is an idiot, this so called Rabbi DOESN'T exist beyond the Christian sources.

When someone becomes a Rabbi they have to go to school and graduate, their name and lineage of the teachings are kept, this Rabbi has ZERO RECORDS OF EXISTING.

You see, for Jews it is out of most important the lineage of knowledge that has been attained, as well the individual needs personal recommendation of people of good character that vouch for them, unless the Sage directly chooses.

The point made is that YOU CAN'T PROOF the existence of this Rabbi which is a Christian creation to be validated by Jews.

The joke is you are not a Hebrew speaker, and go to extensively length to proof what doesn't exist with your pseudo theological education.

DontNeedChrist:

Poor misguided Amalek goes on a ranting filibuster whilst dodging valid questions. Don’t think it went unnoticed. Here they are again:

If Eve’s SINGULAR offspring was jesus, who was the SINGULAR offspring of the serpent?

Precisely what was undone by jesus?

Does sin still exist?

Does death still exist?

Why should anyone care about translations when they can read and understand the native language?

JX Amaro:
Re: Jaguar
Observe that Jaguar denies OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE – physical, tangible evidence. Jaguar can go to Amazon and buy the books. The history of the Rabbis turned Christian is VERIFIED FACT. And yet Jaguar dismisses it. I need say no more about this intellectually dishonest liar.

Re: DNC
1 – The singular offspring is “Anti-Christ” – though “Anti-Christ” is viewed as but a puppet and symbol of “Satan”/ “Lucifer” / “His Dark Majesty” etc. In the gospel story, “anti-christ” is Pontius Pilate; but Pilate himself is nothing more than a low level Roman bureaucrat who doesn't grasp what is going on. To quote a profound line from Pontius Pilate in the Gospel story: “What is truth?” (John 18:37). This is very profound on multiple levels.

2 – What was undone was death in the spiritual sense.

3 – Yeah, of course sin still exists! LOL. That's the point! Have you understood nothing? Adam and Eve were given one law and they broke it. “Israel” was given 613 laws and they broke they broke them all. Do you remember the bit about the “Golden Calf”? Do you remember the rebellions in the Sinai on the way to Canaan? Do you remember the apostasy of Jeroboam? Do you remember Ahaz reinstalling the abomination of human sacrifice? The Mosaic Law can't save you, only the Messiah can. That's the whole point of the story!!! LOL, total biblical illiteracy on the part of DNC! Recall Deuteronomy 18:15 – Moses speaking of “The One” who will come after him and who will be like him and who is to be followed. Then recall Deuteronomy 31:16-21 where YHWH tells Moses that Israel will fail. Now connect the dots. This is why the Messiah is NECESSARY to the story. The Messiah isn't NECESSARY to the establishment and/or restoration of Israel. The Messiah is NECESSARY to the salvation of souls – it's about sin, not politics. Review the letters of St Paul if you still don't get it!!!

4 – Physical death still exists, of course. But for Christian believers, spiritual immortality is Hoped for on Faith! Hallelujah, Christ is Risen!!!

5 – You are going back to the LXX v MT debate. You know my answer. The MT was reworked and put into final form centuries after Jesus – after the Christian/Judaism divide developed. The LXX was written by Jews for Jews. They had no motivation to lie and they put zera into the singular on 3:15 – FACT. Moreover, as a proof of it's high quality and reliability, one can cite Philo of Alexandria, who based his entire work on the LXX. More damning is the FACT that Christianity cohered so succinctly with the LXX that Rabbi Akiva demanded a new Greek translation made so as to cohere with his new, twisted sectarian dogmas. Obviously, the MT was a byproduct of the purposeful misreadings and distortions of Rabbi Akiva and his false rabbis. We've had this debate before.

Maaseh avot siman lebanim – the actions of the fathers are signs to the sons. Too bad DNC and friends can't pick up on the signs and their meanings. Here is a clue: “For if you believed in Moses, you would believe in me (Jesus)” – John 5:46.

E s s e n c e: JX, there ARE NO RECORDS of this so called Rabbi in any Judaic sites or of his Rabbinic schooling. He ONLY exist in this Christian site, and made up biography; what's so hard to grasp this is a made you Christian BS to suit their narrative as usual.

SHOW us proof that he exist beyond the Christian sites AND of his Rabbinical studies records. Don't be lazy and do some research.

E s s e n c e: Hahaha, this guy is a joke, he says "Pontius Pilate is nothing more than a low level Roman bureaucrat," this guy need to learn history, Pilate WASN'T a low level Roman bureaucrat.

A salad of word using historical facts and distorting information to suit his narrative, people like JX have ZERO INTEGRITY in the truth, he is pushing his pseudo theological education.

He doesn't speak Hebrew and doesn't even know history, yet, he sure has plenty of word salad to say nothing substantial.

DontNeedChrist:
Amalek - “The singular offspring is “Anti-Christ”

Wait a minute. That made me dizzy. Let me get this straight. The serpent in the garden which is described as a “beast of the field” (an animal Genesis 3:1) will somehow have a human descendant (Pontius Pilate) who will in turn have a descendant who will pose as the fake messiah? Sure, ok. You can’t be serious. I’m supposed to buy that “snake oil?” You wonder why we reject such fables? How is this not delusional to you?

Amalek - “What was undone was death in the spiritual sense.” “Physical death still exists, of course. But for Christian believers, spiritual immortality is Hoped for on Faith! Hallelujah, Christ is Risen!!!”

So whomever is not a “believer” is spiritually dead? Only christians are spiritually alive? How can you possibly show proof of this? What measuring stick can you produce to show such a thing? This is pure conjecture and an excellent example of the exclusivity of christianity. Believe or else. There is not one thing tangible about your claims. Makes me grateful I’m not a christian.

Amalek - “Yeah, of course sin still exists! LOL.”
Oh, did he atone for your sins or not? Why do christians claim jesus conquered sin and “crushed the snake” when he died but you admit sin still exists? Aren’t all your sins supposedly forgiven because you “believe?” Ever hear of Yom Kippur? Ever hear of t’shuvah? You think G-d didn’t have a system for atonement in place long before your slain messiah arrived on the scene? I can cite numerous passages that clearly state our slates are wiped clean through repentance. Trying to have it both ways I see. What a load.

Amalek - “The MT was reworked and put into final form centuries after Jesus.”

There is absolutely NO proof of this garbage whatsoever. We’ve heard this baseless claim repeatedly and it’s desperation at best. Jews have better things to do than play imaginary cover-up games especially with holy texts. Cannot believe the drivel you’ve fallen for. 9/11 was an inside job too eh?

Incidentally, why do you care about any of this? What’s your obsession with bashing rabbis? You need a constructive hobby.

E s s e n c e: Well said, DNC

JX Amaro:
@Jaguar: LOL. If you want to continue humiliating yourself on the rabbis who converted to Christianity issue, put it in the correct thread, don't try to jackknife this thread.

And yes, being a governor of Judea at that time was far from power. A low level bureaucrat indeed. Zonk.

---)))--->

One Amendment: On the first question, I would like to make it clear that the direct, objective answer is: “the anti-Christ.” That is, a singular human being. My identification of Pontius Pilate as the “anti-Christ” of the Gospel story represents only my personal, subjective reading. Other Christians may disagree with that interpretation. No problem.

---)))--->

Re: DNC

1 – Sorry if I made you dizzy, LOL. If you want to have a debate on eschatology, fine; but I would rather stay on point. From a Christian perspective, Gen 3:15 points toward the conflict of Christ and anti-Christ. That, again, is the OBJECTIVE answer to your question. How to interpret that is SUBJECTIVE. There are “preterists” and “futurists” and so on.

You say the Christian perspective is “snake oil.” OK, have it your way. However, it is interesting that in the spirit of “the Sampson Option” you trash the Garden of Eden story just to trash Christianity. It's also interesting that you seem not to grasp the basic meaning of the story – the loss of immortality. Quite frankly, your Biblical illiteracy is showing. Finally, you have offered no cogent answer to the remarkable parallels between the Eden story and the Israel story. Again, your Biblical illiteracy is showing.

2 – You're glad you're not a Christian? Great. Most of us are glad you are not a Christian, too! LOL. However, more seriously, Christians always hope that even the most deluded will, in time, wake up to the Christian truth.

3 – Your default to Yom Kippur for atonement, again, demonstrates the lunacy of unreconstructed Judaism. Let's unpack this. If you are going to take Yom Kippur seriously, then you are obligated to take seriously the restitution of barbarous animal sacrifices and the whole lot of of the archaic law, too. You can have it your way, but you can't have it BOTH ways. Let's see what else DNC and friends are obligated to! Here is a short list: Diet will have to be 100% fat free (ergo, no pizzas etc) – Lev 3:17; children who curse parents are to be stoned to death – Lev 20:9; gays and lesbians are to be killed – Lev 20:13; no driving cars, no use of lights, and no use of heaters in winter or air conditioners in summer on shabbat – Ex 35:3; no grocery store fruit ever – Lev 19:23... I could go on, and I will! If Exodus 21:7 sanctions selling one's daughter, then what might a fair price be in 2021? If Lev 25:44 allows for the purchasing of slaves from neighboring nations, then how much should Mexican slaves sell for? And Canadian slaves? Are slaves from Bolivia accepted as neighbors, or is Bolivia too far away? One more: Leviticus 15:19-24 informs us that a man should not have contact with a woman while she is menstruating and unclean. But how does one know? It seems a bit awkward to just walk up to a woman and ask. Perhaps DNC can tell us how to smoothly deal with this tricky situation...

Maybe this is why Moses told the Hebrews that someone would follow him and be like him (ie, a lawgiver) and the Hebrews should follow that someone – Deut 18:15. And maybe that someone is Jesus. And maybe the Law of Jesus coheres with the moral law of Moses and just excises that which was superfluous and relevant only to the age that would produce the Scriptures and the Messiah. Let's verify that. Matthew 7:12: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.” Hillel: “That which is hateful to you, do not do unto your neighbor. For that is the whole of the Torah.” Seems verified to me.

Now let's return to Yom Kippur and those barbarous animal sacrifices. If DNC wasn't illiterate on the bible, he might have remembered Isaiah 1:11–16. Here, YHWH clearly states that He has had enough of it – animal sacrifices! He wants no more of it!! And it sickens Him!!! Clearly, that system of atonement is to be REPLACED. And again, this might have something to do with what Moses was talking about in Deut 18:15. Moreover, look to Micah 6:6-8. Again, YHWH informs “Israel” that he has had enough of these burnt offerings and related abominations! Maybe DNC and friends should get a clue. The Prophets are clearly telegraphing that the old system of atonement is an ABOMINATION in the eyes of YHWH and is to be REPLACED. By who? By the Messiah! Who else? This, like so much else, is obvious.

Wait! There's more! As part of the Yom Kippur activities in the Second Temple era, the acceptance of the sacrifices by YHWH (and therefore atonement) would be marked by a red curtain turning white. This happened every year. Strangely, the red curtain ceased to turn white for 40 years leading up to the destruction of the Temple! Of course, about 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, Jesus was crucified. Hmmm, maybe YHWH was sending another message to the Jews? How very curious indeed. (See Yoma 39b in the Talmud.)

KEY Takeaway: Yom Kippur has been REJECTED by YHWH. This REJECTION is made manifest by the Prophets (Isaiah and Micah), by the the last 40 years of the Temple (the curtain issue), and by the destruction of the Temple itself as per the will of YHWH (rendering Yom Kippur functionally impossible). Ergo, the system of atonement inaugurated by Christ Jesus has REPLACED Yom Kippur.

4 – On the MT debate. We have gone through this before. It is a debate that exists on the level of Academic scholarship and not some personal opinion of mine. I've posted links to sources verifying this. It is interesting, though, that – as per “the Sampson Option” – DNC throws the LXX under the bus, in spite of the fact that it was translated by Jews for Jews at a time when there was no reason to lie. It is interesting that DNC did not try to deny that the LXX was held in such esteem that Philo of Alexandria used it for his work. It is interesting that DNC did not deny that the LXX is so counter to the Talmud teachings and so in accord with the NT teachings that the false rabbi Akiva (who proclaimed the false messiah bar Kokhba) ordered a new (ie, falsified) Greek translation to be made. Anyone not living in the cult of Judaism will recognize the obvious implications of these facts.

5 – Why do I care? LOL. YOU are the one who fills this forum with Christian bashing threads. I merely respond and try to defend Christianity from your vulgarities and distortions. So far, I have only contributed one thread – on Daniel. That's it. I have a couple more in mind, but you are the one obsessing on Christian-bashing as your very screen name shows! DNC = Don't Need Christ. Your whole thing here is Christian bashing. Why? If you are concerned about the Jews, you would be better off bashing Secularism. Every year Judaism loses more Jews to Secularism than Christianity. Moreover, the greatest nemesis to Israel as a Jewish State doesn't come from Christians, but the secular left, with secular Jews leading the charge (eg, Noam Chomsky, George Soros etc). Quite frankly, it is usually the Christians who show the greatest support to Israel, and this is especially true in the USA. But, of course, no gratitude. Nothing. How odd. Also, how telling.

You might want to rethink your life, dude.

But this isn't about you, it's about Gen 3:15. And Gen 3:15 is obviously and OBJECTIVELY prophetic. How one interprets Gen 3:15 may well be SUBJECTIVE even to the point of rather mystical interpretations. But to deny that the Eden story is prophetic, that it's about immortality – how it was lost and pointing to how it is to be regained in the future – and to reduce it to just a physical explanation of snakes biting the heel (ie, denying it's metaphysical nature) is either gross biblical ignorance or gross biblical vandalism. Either/Or.

DontNeedChrist:

I’ll respond to that vomitous rant with an explanation for the presence of this forum and the chat room. For centuries Jews have been told by christians they are going to hell for rejecting the christian god/messiah. We missed our messiah and G-d is punishing us. The “church” has replaced Israel as G-d’s chosen. I could go on and on with all the claims, comments, insults and viciousness I’ve experienced at the hands of loving christians but that would be futile.

This forum and chat are a platform to refute false christian claims about Jews, Judaism, Torah, Talmud and passages from these vast volumes of Hebrew texts. They are routinely maligned, taken out of context, mistranslated or simply lied about. You have shown classic examples.

If you don’t want to read about the Jewish POV about Jewish issues then go elsewhere. There is no gun to your head.

To address some of your mess:
Amalek:
“From a Christian perspective, Gen 3:15 points toward the conflict of Christ and anti-Christ.”

If you choose to believe in fictional characters go right ahead. We know what that passage says and what it means and always have long before the christian narrative hijacked it to be about yoshke. Would you care about an Islamic response to a christian verse or a Hindu's take? You would refute it or at the very least dismiss it. That's what this is about.

Amalek:
“It's also interesting that you seem not to grasp the basic meaning of the story – the loss of immortality.”

Wrong, that is precisely what it’s about. Obeying G-d, the chance to repent, taking personal responsibility, feeling remorse for falling short of G-d’s expectations. That is the message. NOT satans, christs, anti christs, “parallel” similarities and whatever else you can conjure. YOU miss the message while busy turning over rocks trying to find jesus in every verse. Enough about Genesis 3:15. Your "christian" perspective is noted and debunked.

Amalek:
“Christians always hope that even the most deluded will, in time, wake up to the Christian truth.”

LOL, "christian truth" is an oxymoron.

Your 3rd bullet point makes no sense. Can’t even begin to reply to a long list of lies unless it’s all sarcasm but who can tell the difference with you?

Amalek:
“Isaiah 1:11–16. Here, YHWH clearly states that He has had enough of it – animal sacrifices! He wants no more of it!! And it sickens Him!!! Clearly, that system of atonement is to be REPLACED.”

Explain to me why there are prophecies by Isaiah, Ezekiel and others that foretell of the rebuilding of the Temple and the RESUMPTION OF ANIMAL OFFERINGS. Explain that to me please. The animal sacrifices even continued while the Temple still stood decades after jesus’ death until its destruction. He never “replaced” the system and the TRUE Messiah will reestablish the Levitical offerings. So much for your replacement theory. Read ALL the scriptures, not the ones that suit your agenda.

Amalek:
“As part of the Yom Kippur activities in the Second Temple era, the acceptance of the sacrifices by YHWH (and therefore atonement) would be marked by a red curtain turning white.”

Wow did you get this one wrong. First off, that is nowhere in the Torah or ’Nach. It’s in the Talmud (Mishnah Yoma to be exact.) Second, it’s not the curtain in the Temple it was a string tied to one of the goats. Third, it didn’t change color every year, sometimes yes sometimes no. Wow what an epic fail. You screwed that one up beyond description. Your biblical illiteracy is really showing and you should be embarrassed. We’re embarrassed for you.

Amalek:
“KEY Takeaway: Yom Kippur has been REJECTED by YHWH.”

G-d disagrees as He proclaims Yom Kippur AN ETERNAL COMMAND:
“Leviticus 16:29 –
“And it shall be a statute FOREVER unto you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and shall do no manner of work, the home-born, or the stranger that sojourneth among you.”

16:30 “For on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from ALL YOUR SINS shall ye be clean before the Lord.”

16:31 “It is a sabbath of solemn rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls; it is a statute FOREVER.”

Seems G-d decreed the Day of Atonement as FOREVER meaning never to end or be replaced. What about the word FOREVER do you not understand? G-d must have told a little fib according to you. Do I believe the holy word of G-d or some schlub on the internet we call Amalek? Hmmmmm. ’Nuff said regarding that heap of garbage you typed. It’s so pathetic.

Amalek:
“Why do I care? LOL. YOU are the one who fills this forum with Christian bashing threads.”

See my initial statement. This is MY response to endless Jew bashing from the ugliness of your ilk for centuries. Don’t like it? Go elsewhere. Enough whining.

JX Amaro:
As any objective reader can tell, DNC’s above “response” was an exercise in “damage control” – there’s nothing much of substance. Only a couple brief points are required.

1 – Take careful note that DNC has doubled down on the barbarous “animal sacrifices” form of atonement to defend his Judaic (ie, apostate) faith. This is in direct contradiction to the will of YHWH as expressed through his prophets – Isaiah and Micah in particular. Yes, according to DNC, we are to imagine that in some fine, future day, when the Third Temple is built, Jews will drive to the Third Temple with trucks full of rams, lambs, bulls and goats and these animals will then be dumped at the Temple where psychopathic rabbis will douse them with gasoline and...light them up! (And rip them apart – limb by limb – with fresh blood splattering about everywhere!)

This is a pretty obvious “red flag” that Judaism is intellectually sick and morally insane.

2 A – DNC: “Explain to me why there are prophecies by Isaiah, Ezekiel and others that foretell of the rebuilding of the Temple and the RESUMPTION OF ANIMAL OFFERINGS.”

That’s easy. The Mosaic Law only comes to a formal, contractual end with the Messiah (see Deut 18:15). Only the Messiah can create a New Covenant and a new – legally sanctioned – system of atonement. As an intermediary, Isaiah is informing the Hebrew Judans that the old system is no longer pleasing to YHWH and that Hebrew Judans would do more to please YHWH by engaging in righteous actions than animal sacrifices. Again, the coming of the Messiah is being telegraphed by the prophets and part of the message is that a new system of atonement will be established. And that is exactly what Christ Jesus did.

2B – DNC: “The animal sacrifices even continued while the Temple still stood decades after (J)esus’ death until its destruction.”

LOL. Yeah, they did. And as I pointed out, the curtain/string/whatever didn’t change color. YHWH rejected those sacrifices, that atonement. A new system of atonement had been formally, legally sanctioned by Christ Jesus and the old, Levitical one was rendered obsolete. Finally, with the destruction of the temple, YHWH’s verdict was finalized beyond rational debate.

Apparently, Judaics are too blinded by hate, ignorance and bigotry to grasp the obvious on this point.

2C – DNC: . “...the TRUE Messiah will reestablish the Levitical offerings.”

And there you have it, the moral insanity of apostate Judaism. No further comment required.

3 – Now let’s get back to the relevant point – Eden and Gen 3:15. It would seem that DNC has changed his tune and decided to agree with me that the Eden story actually is about the Fall and the loss of immortality.

DNC: Amalek: “It's also interesting that you seem not to grasp the basic meaning of the story – the loss of immortality.”
“Wrong, that (immortality?) is precisely what it’s about. Obeying G-d, the chance to repent, taking personal responsibility, feeling remorse for falling short of G-d’s expectations. That is the message. NOT satans, christs, anti christs, “parallel” similarities and whatever else you can conjure.”

Assuming I am correct and the pronoun “that” is meant to stand for “immortality”, then DNC has conceded everything and the whole debate. In point of fact, the whole Eden story is about the loss of immortality and the “message” is that it will require the Messiah to recover eternal life – to crush the snake and cure the venom of death. Note this carefully: Obedience to the Torah does NOT grant one salvation, access to “the World to Come.” In classical Hebrew Jewish thought, the righteous of Israel would go to “Abraham’s Bosom” after death. There, they would “sleep” in dark Sheol while awaiting the Messiah to come, Judgment Day, Resurrection and access to “the World to Come.” If you understand this, you will then understand what St Paul was talking about generally and his Romans letter particularly. Obedience to Torah does not bring salvation, only the Messiah.

4 – To summarize: OBJECTIVELY, the Eden story is about the loss of eternal life and a prophecy that the Messiah will restore that eternal life. The Christian Bible gives you the FULL Story. The Judaic TaNaK gives you HALF the story and then perverts it to grotesquery with the Talmud. DNC’s blood lust for obscene animal sacrifices proves the point. Sick!

DontNeedChrist:

“Take careful note that DNC has doubled down on the barbarous “animal sacrifices” form of atonement…”

Not me. G-d’s prophets.

Isaiah 56:7 referring the the THIRD TEMPLE:

“I will bring them to My holy mount, and I will cause them to rejoice in My house of prayer, their BURNT OFFERINGS and their SACRIFICES shall be favorably acceptable upon My altar, for My HOUSE shall be called a house of prayer for ALL the nations.”

In the Book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel) from chapter 40 - 43 Ezekiel recounts the visions he experienced regarding the architectural specifications and a tour of the THIRD TEMPLE in which the SACRIFICIAL OFFERINGS WILL RESUME.

Ezekiel 40:22 –
“The altar was wood three cubits high and two cubits long, and its corners, and its length and its walls were wood. And he spoke to me, "This is the table that is before the Lord."

Why is Ezekiel being shown the altar if it won’t be used for offerings? Decoration? Answer to that. You won’t.

Ezekiel 43:18 – 27 –
“And He said to me; Son of man, thus says the Lord G-d: These are the ordinances of the altar on the day when it will be made, to offer burnt offerings thereon and to sprinkle blood thereon.”

I won’t list the rest that go to verse 27 but they ALL describe the offerings of bulls, rams, goats, etc. IN THE FUTURE!

The Prophet Hosea foretold of the suspension of sacrificial offerings:
Hosea 3:4 –
“For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim;”

NOTE it says “many days” NOT PERMANENTLY. Read Ezekiel and we see they will resume when the Temple is rebuilt. Nowhere can you show where yoshke permanently replaced anything especially the Beit Hamikdash offerings. Read the ENTIRE Tanach instead of snippets from christian websites you narrow-minded dolt.

SORRY PAL, THESE VERSES ALONE CANCEL OUT ALL YOUR CLAIMS OF THE MESSIAH BEING A REPLACEMENT. THESE AREN’T EVEN MY OPINIONS, THEY ARE SCRIPTURAL FACTS. YOU CAN’T IGNORE THIS. THESE ARE VISIONS OF THE FUTURE POST-YOSHKE! WIGGLE YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS GENIUS.

And so hilarious that you refer to these offerings as barbaric. Let’s examine that. What is the basis of christianity? The death of a man/god hanging on a cross for the sins of mankind. Nah, nothing barbaric about that. A human being nailed to wood beams bleeding and suffocating to death has no degree of barbarism at all.

Who do you think you're kidding?

Is the image of a dying man less barbaric than the offering of an animal? Do you eat meat Amalek? If so, those animals were slaughtered for food. The sacrificial offerings fed the kohens so they had a dual purpose aside from sin atonement. You might want to take issue with the meat packing industry – those barbarians. How dare they provide Amalek with a Porterhouse steak medium rare! This goes on daily just for the food chain. Did the disciples roast and eat yoshke? Clean up your own backyard before you trash others. The image of a person being crucified is the epitome of barbarism. And that doesn’t even account for the history of barbarism throughout christianity with pogroms and blood libels against the Jews. Spare us your petty judgement on barbarism. What a joke!

“That’s easy. The Mosaic Law only comes to a formal, contractual end with the Messiah (see Deut 18:15)”

Let’s take a look at Deuternomy 18:15:

“A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your G-d will set up for you; you shall hearken to him.”

Rashi’s commentary (your fave) on this passage: “[A prophet] from among you, from your brethren, like me: This means: Just as I am among you, from your brothers, so will He set up for you [another prophet] in my stead, and so on, FROM PROPHET TO PROPHET.”

IN NO WAY DOES THIS POINT EXCLUSIVELY TO ANY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. In no way does it refer to Moshiach. In no way does it mention the end of korban. I don’t even want to know where you get this crap. It refers to all future prophets (per Rashi your fave). Your yoshke was no prophet and by the way, Islam also claims this verse is about Muhammad so get in line and take a number. Everyone wants in on this passage. Your claim is completely debunked and baseless.

I’m not wasting anymore time on Genesis 3:15. I destroyed your talking points but you can’t let it go. You’re a hypocritical uneducated anti-semite. Your typewritten words expose you.

Case in point:
“This is a pretty obvious “red flag” that Judaism is intellectually sick and morally insane.” - JX Amalek

JX Amaro:
I just love that quote! LOL. And everything DNC wrote underscored and proved it!

Key Takeaway: The whole point of the Eden story is messianic prophecy – the loss of eternal life and it’s eventual restoration by the Messiah. Denial of this FACT is just Judaic misinformation, bigotry and hate.

DontNeedChrist:

I just proved your claim FALSE using scripture and not opinion, feelings or emotions that the Temple sacrificial system will be reinstated when it's rebuilt and all you can do is pat yourself on the back for the lies you perpetrate while offering no rebuttal. Who's really in denial? Keep drinking the Kool-Aid buddy.

E s s e n c e: DNC, well said and done.

E s s e n c e: As for JX, this character is a good example of religious hatred how Christianity is use as a tool of hate.

DontNeedChrist:

Moving on from the minor distraction...

Christians claim a verse from the Book of Zechariah is a prophecy of jesus’ crucifixion and sadness his disciples will experience. They cite the fulfillment in John 19:36-37 which states:

36 - "These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” 37 - "and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” So because John parrots Zechariah, it's supposedly a prophecy "fulfillment."

This is the Tanach verse in question:
Zechariah 12:10 –

Christian KJV version:
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have PIERCED, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

More accurate translation:
“And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been THRUST THROUGH [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.”

Note the words in caps. The Hebrew never uses the word pierced in this passage. The verb דקר means to stab or thrust through, not “to pierce.”

It says "They will look toward Me (G-d) because of those (plural) whom they have stabbed."

Not "him" (aka jesus) but "me" (G-d). The one who is stabbed is not the messiah.

This is not a messianic prophecy -- although it is a prophecy about the messianic age. The prophet Zechariah is speaking of the glory that awaits the Jewish people in the messianic age after a great battle.

Who is the one who is stabbed?

Zechariah is speaking of all those who will be slain in this final battle. The people will turn to G-d and they will mourn greatly -- as one would over a firstborn son.

Was jesus a warrior? NO.

Did he did die in battle? NO.

The correct translation of Zechariah 12:10 is: “v’hibbitu élai / and they shall look to Me" and "ét asher-daqaru / because of him who they thrust through.”

The "Me" and "him" do not both apply to G-d. The christian version incorrectly translates the Hebrew to convey that the "Me" (G-d) and the "him" are one and the same. Not the case at all.

G-d isn't stabbed -- someone has been stabbed and the people look to G-d in shock because of the ones who were stabbed. . . The verb דקר means to stab, not “to pierce.”

Zechariah is writing of the future (it still hasn't happened) when the nations of the world will be gathered against Jerusalem to destroy it. On that day, G-d Himself will defend Jerusalem and destroy all of its enemies. G-d will pour out a spirit of grace and supplication toward the Jews. Grace is requested from G-d and supplication are directed to G-d. Zechariah is writing about all those who will be slain in this final battle (PLURAL). The people will turn to G-d and they will mourn greatly -- as one would over a firstborn son. Christians seize on the “firstborn son” as jesus but that’s simply desperation. It’s a metaphor describing the sorrow that will be experienced because of this event.

AND this happens in the end times -- not 2,000 years ago. The prophet has said that the non-Jewish nations will lay siege to Jerusalem -- when did this happen in jesus' lifetime? NEVER.

Ergo this prophecy does not "fit" jesus.

JX Amaro:
LOL, you guys are funny.

Fact Check #1:
DNC: “I just proved your claim FALSE using scripture and not opinion, feelings or emotions that the Temple sacrificial system will be reinstated when it's rebuilt and all you can do is pat yourself on the back for the lies you perpetrate while offering no rebuttal. Who's really in denial?”

Observe that the debate-point was about the Eden story and Genesis 3:15 – not the atonement issue. (DNC is trying to avert attention from his defeat on that.)

As per the atonement issue: I will briefly point out that even Rambam – in one of his moments of actual sanity – recognized that the animal sacrifices were part of ancient near eastern culture and YHWH was communicating to the Hebrews relative to the cultural standards of the time (see “Moreh Nevuchim 3:32 and 3:46). Of course, depending on who you cite, Rambam may or may not have favored the return of animal sacrifices. It doesn’t matter, the whole idea is insane.

As per the cited scripture – Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea: DNC claims these show that animal sacrifices will be restored in the “Third Temple.” Here, DNC confuses symbolic language with literal language – serious blunder. This is prophecy; prophecy uses symbols; symbols must be decoded. Duhhh...

Crash Course on Leviticus: There are 5 offerings: Burnt; Grain; Peace; Sin; and Guilt.

Now don’t confuse “Means” with “Ends.” The Means are the sacrifice, the offering. The “Ends” are atonement. Generally speaking, if you violate a law of the state – like speeding at 80 mph – you pay a fine (eg, $250). If you violate a law of God – sin – you also have to pay a fine, the offering/sacrifice. The offering of something of value makes atonement for the sin. In the world of the ancient near east, animals were something of value and therefore the offering/sacrifice. Today things are different. Thus, the SIMPLE ANSWER is that “monetary sacrifices” replace “animal sacrifices;” and as such, they become the “burnt offerings” (etc) in practice. Thus, when the “Third Temple” in (Christian) Jerusalem is built, yes citizens of all the nations will bring “burnt offerings” and the like to the “Third Temple.” However, these “burnt offerings” won’t be rams, lambs, goats and bulls, but – frankly – $10s, $20s, $50s, and $100s. And that money will be used to maintain the magnificence of the temple and to promote Christian charitable work throughout the world.

But according to DNC, we Christians have “drank the kool aid” – ie, we are stoned and seeing the world through “yoshke glasses,” or whatever. So who is right? Common sense answers the question: The Christian theory works. The Judaic one is dysfunctional and insane. How will citizens of the nations bringing rams, lambs, goats and bulls – for bloody sacrifice – to the “Third Temple” in (Judaic) Jerusalem bring anything but horror and nightmare? Does DNC think YHWH will be satisfied or delighted by this? Ixne. YHWH will be disgusted, the prophets have already said so (eg, Isaiah 1:13-14). It’s DNC and friends who are on a very bad acid trip. Duhhh.

So much for DNC’s last ditch attempt to claim some kind of small victory amid his embarrassing catastrophe in the Eden debate.

(Note: My explanation was, admittedly, a highly simplified explanation of a complex subject – soteriology. This is Wire Club, not Harvard Square.)

---)))--->>

Fact Check #2
Jaguar: “As for JX, this character is a good example of religious hatred how Christianity is use as a tool of hate.”

As a courtesy, I will not call attention to issues of grammar or syntax in the above statement (!). However, let’s analyze what I said, for I did use strong language.

JX Amaro: “Denial of this FACT is just Judaic misinformation, bigotry and hate.”

First, note that I purposely used the word “Judaic” as distinct from “Jewish” to make it clear that my target were people – born Jewish or otherwise – who hold to Judaic theological beliefs, particularly of the more unreconstructed type. It was NOT an attack on “the Jews” as a corporate body. In fact, many Jews believe the same thing I do vis-a-vis the interpretation of the Eden story as messianic. (I have already cited a Targum demonstrating this FACT, relative to Jews of the Classical era; and I could cite a host of “Messianic Jews” – many of which live in Israel – who also hold the same belief.)

Second, it’s self-evident that this whole “jihad” against Christianity coming from DNC, Rabbi Toviah Singer, Jews for Judaism etc derives from anti-Christian bigotry and hate. As I said before, and will repeat again, EVERY YEAR Judaism loses far more Jews to Secularism than Christianity. So why all the anti-Christian bloviation and misinformation??? Wouldn’t the pro-Judaism advocates better spend their time attempting to refute the dogmas of Secularism??? That would be the rational thing to do. But they don’t! They obsess on attacking Christianity. Why? Easy Answer: They have a guttural hatred and bigotry against Christianity.

Bottom Line: Judaism is heretical, apostate and morally insane.

E s s e n c e: I see the conduct of this chatter who claims to be a Jesus follower is heretical and morally insane, the way he behaves shows that Christianity is a poisonous religion.

DontNeedChrist:
Wow, you’re delusion continues.

So, I looked up your reference in Rambam’s Guide to the Perplexed in regard to sacrifices. He clearly states:

“The Prophets in their books are frequently found to rebuke their fellow-men for being over-zealous and exerting themselves too much in bringing sacrifices: the prophets thus distinctly declared that the object of the sacrifices is not very essential, and that G-d does not require them.”

In other words Jews were paying lip service to the system by being unrepentant but thinking since they’re going through the motions by bringing offerings their atonement was assured. This teaches us that the actual offering itself is secondary to one’s true heartfelt repentance. G-d was saying stop bringing Me these insincere offerings. It has nothing to do with “cultural standards” wherever you get that idea. And NOWHERE do the scriptures or Rambam state the offerings will be terminated permanently. This is a fabrication and again, wishful thinking on your part. I showed you several prophecies proving the resumption of korban will happen in the messianic era. It's your choice to disregard them. I could not care less. Yet another baseless claim debunked. Too simple.

“Here, DNC confuses symbolic language with literal language – serious blunder. This is prophecy; prophecy uses symbols; symbols must be decoded. Duhhh…”

What an idiotic statement. What is your litmus test for what is literal and what is symbolic? Do you use your handy-dandy decoder ring to decipher which is which? You cannot be taken seriously.

Your outrageous claim that animal offerings will be replaced by monetary offerings actually made me laugh out loud. A completely unbiblical claim without merit. You’re opinions and half-baked theories mean nothing.

“Of course, depending on who you cite, Rambam may or may not have favored the return of animal sacrifices. It doesn’t matter, the whole idea is insane.”

Pure OPINION on your part. It DOES matter because Rambam never calls for or confirms the permanent end to korban. Prove otherwise. You’ve been called out on your BS.

Also I have to add that it’s hilarious how time and again you harangue the sages and the Oral Tradition but then latch onto something written or said by them that you mistakenly think supports your weak argument. The epitome of hypocrisy. You want it both ways but it doesn’t work that way jackass. You show evidence from sources you diss!

One word: HYPOCRITE.

E s s e n c e: Well said, DNC.