NOT a messianic prophecy (Page 5)

JX Amaro:
Re: Jaguar
Jaguar: “...this chatter (JX Amaro) who claims to be a Jesus follower is heretical and morally insane, the way he behaves shows that Christianity is a poisonous religion.”

Am I a “heretic” or “insane”? Let’s look at scripture!

Isaiah 1:11: “The multitude of your sacrifices – what are they to me?” says the Lord. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.”

Isaiah 1:13-17 “STOP bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is DETESTABLE to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations – I cannot bear your WORTHLESS ASSEMBLIES. 14 Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I HATE with all my being. They have become a BURDEN to me; I am WEARY of bearing them. 15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I HIDE MY EYES FROM YOU; even when you offer many prayers, I am NOT listening. YOUR HANDS ARE FULL OF BLOOD! 16 Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. 17 Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed...”

Micah 6-8: “With what shall I come before the Lord and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? … He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”

Hosea 6:6: “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.”

Matthew 12:7 (Jesus speaking and quoting Hosea): “If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.”

Yes! Jesus was right! And if YOU – Jaguar and others – had understood the prophets, YOU would not condemn me or Christianity. And YOU would certainly not indulge lunatic fantasies like “Third Temple” Jerusalem becoming an ocean of animal blood with psychotic rabbis demanding more and more...blood. Ughh. Sick. Please try to recover your sanity. Thanks.

---)))---

Re: DNC
Oh, and it looks like DNC has gone off half-cocked and kooky again! LOL.

1 – I have no idea what point DNC was trying to make with Rambam.

1A – DNC quotes from Rambam this:
“...the prophets thus distinctly declared that the OBJECT of the sacrifices is not very essential, and that G-d does not require them.”

Gee, that sounds like the exact point I was making! The OBJECT (eg, animals, money, virtue etc) is only the MEANS. YHWH does NOT require slaughtering animals as a MEANS. In fact, he prefers acts of mercy, justice and charity and deplores animal sacrifices (as the prophets say – see above quotations for PROOF!). DNC then, instead of conceding my point, spins off into an incoherent, eisegetical ramble. LOL.

1B – It is an undisputed FACT that some think Rambam believed animal sacrifices would be restored while others think Rambam believed animal sacrifices would not be restored (eg, Abarbanel). (And it’s a FACT that I didn’t offer an opinion on Rambam’s position either way. DNC is playing the “straw man” argument – again.) Here’s a proof that there is debate on this coming from some nutter (Dovid Schwartz) who wants to restore animal sacrifices:

“A short while ago, writing for The Times of Israel, in an open letter to God, R. Shmuly Yanklowitz claimed that the idea of animal sacrifice is outdated. “Your people,” he writes, addressing HaShem, “must be a light to the nations, not a source of darkness by returning to a practice once deemed honorable but now perceived by the global masses as barbaric.”
R. Yanklowitz further claims that Rambam “taught that prayer was evolution from animal sacrifice and a more silent meditative type of worship will eventually supersede prayer with words.” While I am in no position to comment on whether or not R. Yanklowitz and the global masses really do perceive sacrifice as barbaric, I believe that his claim about Rambam is incorrect. GIVEN THE POPULARITY OF THIS THEORY, I would like to present my own understanding of the issue.”
Source: https://dafaleph.com/home/2017/2/1/sanctuary-and-sacrifice-rambams-view-of-korbanot

Did you read that? Yanklowitz is claiming Rambam would oppose restoring animal sacrifices and Schwartz is acknowledging that this is a POPULAR OPINION. Whether Yanklowitz or Schwartz is right on Rambam – I could care less. However, I do think Yanklowitz is correct that relative to the modern world, animal sacrifices is BARBARIC!!! (That said, it was HONORABLE in an age where: A) there was hardly a monetary economy and animals were things of value that could be offered as a sacrifice; and B) many of the “pagan” societies – like those of Canaan – were practicing human sacrifice, which YHWH clearly abhorred.)

1C – Finally, it is an undisputed FACT – among people who know what they are talking about (thus disqualifying DNC) – that Rambam believed animal sacrifices were derived from the “pagan” practice of the ancient near east:
“In his philosophical work (Moreh Nevuchim 3:32), Rambam argues that because human nature is such that people cannot instantaneously abandon existing religious practices, God retained the practice of animal sacrifices. This ancient practice of the idolaters was redirected toward worshipping the true God.”
Note: This comes from a pro-animal sacrifice Judaic thinker who argues that Rambam was pro-restoration of animal sacrifice. Source: https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-truth-korbanot/


In short, DNC is raving and drooling, counter-factual and totally clueless. LOL

2 – So DNC laughs at my idea that in the future when the “Third Temple” is built in Christian Jerusalem people will bring MONEY not animals as an offering. A couple points:

First, I clearly stated (in ALL CAPS) that I was offering a “SIMPLE ANSWER.” I further pointed out that it is a COMPLEX subject. But YES, I think that is correct, but let’s unpack it a bit more. As the quotations supplied above show, YHWH, and Christ want to REPLACE barbarous “animal sacrifices” with a different type of “sacrifice” – mercy, doing justice and the like. In Christian thought there is a simple word for this: CHARITY. Of course, the average Christian isn’t in much of a position to fly off to some third-world disaster area and do Mother Theresa work. Thus, in practice, most Christians give money to support things like that while going about attempting to do right in their daily life.

Second, let’s again imagine, “A Tale of Two Jerusalems.”

In Christian Jerusalem there is a magnificent, clean temple of white marble and gold columns and Christians from all over the world arrive every day to go to the “Third Temple,” drop a CHARITABLE (monetary) donation and then go on a tour of the Holy Land. The wealth that comes from this helps to make the “Third Temple” a “wonder of the world” and the charitable work from the donated money brings food to the hungry, homes to the homeless, education to the illiterate and so on throughout the world. That is a MAGNIFICENT picture.

On the other hand, in the Judaic Jerusalem of DNC’s dreams (and many others, too!) there is a “Third Temple” covered in blood, puddles of blood, and pools of blood… There are ripped up animal bodies and burnt animal bones littering the streets… There are psychotic rabbis splattered in fresh blood shrieking, “More, more, you sinners! More rams! More goats! HaShem demands it! Blood, blood, blood!” …

Seriously, this isn’t even funny any more. It’s sick.

I need say no more. But I will. As we see by the very arguments made by the Judaics, Judaism is APOSTATE, intellectually SICK and morally INSANE.

Yo DNC, thanks for proving my talking points! LOL

E s s e n c e: Hahaha this guy is so DESPERATE to be validated that almost makes me feel sorry for him. I see a PHONEY Christian follower that doesn't represent what Jesus supposedly is.

JX Amaro:
@Jaguar: Shooting down the messenger, because you can't shoot down the message? OK, I'll take that as a victory.

DontNeedChrist:

Declaring victory does not make one victorious. Humility is not one of your virtues.

E s s e n c e: JX, lol your message has been shoot down here countlessly with facts and evidence. You in the other hand are so desperate to be validated while bringing pseudo theological knowledge, cherry picking bible verses, when you are not a Hebrew speaker and is trying to Hebrewnize Hebrew as English. So I say that you are claiming victory based in a fantasy.

DontNeedChrist:
Christians claim Leviticus 17:11 is a prophecy fulfilled by jesus that is not prophetic at all. Leviticus 17 is a chapter speaking of how, when and where to slaughter kosher animals (jesus was not a kosher animal and he was not slaughtered per kosher laws). Verse 11 is a completion of a thought begun in verse 10 – do not eat the blood of kosher animals. Why?  Read read the next verse!

Reading the verse in context with the prior verse and the verse following, we can see its true meaning:

17:10 – "And any man of the House of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My attention upon the soul who eats the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people."

17:11 – "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have therefore given it to you [to be placed] upon the altar, to atone for your souls. For it is the blood that atones for the soul."

17:12 – "Therefore, I said to the children of Israel: None of you shall eat blood, and the stranger who sojourns among you shall not eat blood."

Christians focus on verse 11 ONLY to back the erroneous claim that blood is the ONLY means of atonement but nothing could be further from the truth.

Here is a list of several other offerings G-d accepts besides blood.

Leviticus 5:11-13 - meal offerings, guilt offerings, sin offerings. No blood.
1 Samuel 15:22 - prayer instead of sacrifice
1 Kings 8: 26-54 - prayer instead of sacrifice
Hosea 14:2-3 - prayer instead of sacrifice
Psalms 32:5 & 69:31-32 - prayer instead of sacrifice
Jeremiah 29:12-13 36:3 - prayer instead of sacrifice
Daniel 6:11-12 - prayer instead of sacrifice
2 Samuel 12:13 - King David was forgiven without any mention of blood.
Psalms 51:16-17 declares that G-d does not want a sacrifice or burnt offering.
Ezekiel 18:30-32 asks for repentance, a change of heart, a broken spirit and a contrite heart. No blood.
Isaiah 55:7 tells us to “forsake our evil ways and G-d will abundantly pardon.” No blood.
Jonah 3:19 tells of forgiveness through fasting and repenting. No blood.
Micah 6:8 exhorts us to “do justly love mercy and walk humbly.” No blood.
Zechariah 1:3 “Return unto me and I will return unto you.” No blood.
Repentance (II Samuel 12:13-14, Jonah 3:10, Lev. 26:40-42, Ezek. 18:21-32, 33:11-16) No blood.
Kindness (Prov. 16:6, Daniel 4:24) No blood.
Prayer (Hos. 14:2-3, I Kings 8:46-50, Daniel 9:19) No blood.
Money (Ex. 30:15) No blood.
Jewelry (Num. 31:50) No blood.
Incense (Num. 17:11-12) No blood.

Leviticus 17:11 does say that the life of the flesh is in blood. This simply means that it is blood that keeps us alive. Verse 11 should not be read by itself – it is part of a passage which says that Jews are not to eat (drink) the blood of kosher animals (the only animals Jews may eat). We are forbidden from eating blood – and this message from Leviticus 17 is repeated in many other passages. Eating blood is disgusting to G-d. Eating blood, spiritually (as in christian communion) or literally (e.g. eating a rare steak) is prohibited.

Leviticus 17:10-11 tells us that the life force is in the blood, and that the blood of a kosher animal must either be thrown into the dirt (Leviticus 17:13) or placed upon the altar as part of a kosher sacrifice. Jesus’ blood was not part of any Jewish covenant, and if he bled then his blood was neither thrown into the dirt (which would not be a sacrifice anyway) or placed upon the Temple altar.

Aside from the fact that human sacrifice is forbidden, the Torah tells us that a proper sacrifice must be of a kosher, domestic animal (the animal is often identified as a bull, a seh (goat or lamb), etc (see Exodus 13:13; Leviticus 22). Jesus, being a human (or even a demi-god) was obviously not a kosher animal and thus was unacceptable as a sacrifice. 

Also, the Torah teaches that sacrifices can only atone for sins committed PRIOR to the offering of the sacrifice. No sacrifice could ever atone for sins committed AFTER the sacrifice was offered. Thus, no sacrifice could ever atone for people born after the sacrifice was offered.

The Jews were used to bringing sacrifices during their bondage in Egypt and this is why G-d permitted them. Sacrifices gave man a way to feel closer to G-d by giving Him something of value (be it money, flour, an animal, etc.)

Sacrifices were not magic -- they were a gift of G-d to help us truly atone by giving up something of value to Him.  G-d forbids and abhors human sacrifice. The death of jesus couldn't have atoned for the sins of anyone, he was simply murdered by the Romans as were tens of thousands of Jews.

poetry123: While I understand the reason behind the prohibition to eat blood- I don't at all understand how this is a prophecy or how it relates to Jesus. Maybe a christian can explain this.
____________

Let's go back to the beginning- to creation. Man was allowed to eat only from plants and forbidden from eating animals.

Several generations later- Noach and his sons. Man was permitted to eat the body of animals but forbidden from eating the limb of a live animal. A limb torn from an animal before it was killed is forbidden to all humanity- not just jews.

This is because eating a limb from a live animal shows disdain for its life. As long as it's still alive we must respect it and see it as a living creature- not as potential food.

Eating blood as well shows contempt for the animal's life. Someone with a soul must not eat a soul because all souls are G-d's.

In an ideal world- we would all be vegetarian. But it's not a perfect world and so eating meat is allowed- with restrictions.

Still we should understand this is not ideal and we should be aware of the prohibition of blood- it obligates us to stop and show respect to any living being by refraining from eating the part of it that symbolizes its soul and life.

DontNeedChrist:

Isaiah 53:4 does not speak of sin.

Not one word.

The Hebrew word for sin does not appear at all in Isaiah 53:4 –
"But in truth it was our ILLS that he bore, and our PAINS that he carried -- but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d and afflicted!" 

To understand this passage one must put it in context. The speakers are the gentile nations (mentioned in Isaiah 52.) These verses are part of the preamble to the first few lines in Isaiah 53. Don't be misled since those lines are at the end of chapter 52 and are not part of chapter 53 -- chapters are a christian invention. In the original scrolls they sat side by side. Separating them into different chapters was most likely an effort to divorce the gentile nations from being the speakers in chapter 53 -- which most christians will claim are the Jews speaking of their mistreatment of jesus. Not so.

Read the end of Isaiah 52 and notice the voices of the real speakers of the first nine lines of Isaiah 53 -- the gentile nations. In the end of Isaiah 52 G-d is speaking and says: 

"Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty. 14 Just as multitudes were astonished over you (saying) "His appearance is too marred to be a man's, and his visage to be human,"  15 so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths (in amazement) for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard." Isaiah 52:13-15.   

The gentile nations are shocked! They see the exaltation of G-d's servant and are shocked beyond belief. They had thought this one was despised, subhuman -- and they mistreated him as a result, even to the point of exiles and murders. The gentile nations now realize that their spiritual assessment of the servant was completely backward. During the time of the servant’s lowliness those who knew him believed that his constant affliction proves that he is spiritually deformed. Otherwise, why would this nation be singled out for G-d’s wrath over any other?

The passage says nothing about sin.

The servant bore the pains of the gentile nations -- mistreated with exiles, theft of property, beatings and even executions -- they regarded the servant not as G-d's servant but as a subhuman, diseased disgusting one who they thought G-d had afflicted as subhuman, when in reality it was the wrongdoings of the gentile nations who so abused the servant.

G-d exiled the Jews -- but it was those to whom he was exiled who mistreated him far beyond the punishment of exile.

Isaiah 53:4 says nothing about the servant bearing the sins of others. The servant is the victim of them, not the "sacrifice" or "sin-bearer" of others.

So who is this servant? We are told repeatedly in the Tanach:

Isaiah 41:8-9
"But you, O Israel, MY SERVANT, Jacob, you whom I have chosen, offspring of Abraham who loved Me...and to whom I shall say: 'You are my servant' - I have chosen you and not rejected you."

Isaiah 44:1
"But hear now Jacob, MY SERVANT, and Israel whom I have chosen!"

Isaiah 44:21
"Remember these things, Jacob and Israel, for you are MY SERVANT: I fashioned you to be My servant: Israel do not forget Me!"

Isaiah 45:4
"..for the sake of MY SERVANT Jacob and Israel, My chosen one: I have proclaimed you by name..."

Isaiah 48:20
"...say, 'G-d has redeemed HIS SERVANT Jacob."

Isaiah 49:3
"...You are MY SERVANT, Israel, in whom I take glory."

Jeremiah 30:10
"But as for you, do not fear MY SERVANTJacob, the word of Hashem (G-d) and do not be afraid, Israel..."

Psalms 136:22
"An inheritance to Israel HIS SERVANT, for His kindness is eternal."

Jeremiah 31:10
"For the L-rd will ransom Jacob, Redeem HIM from one too strong for HIM."

Jeremiah 3:6
"And the L-rd said to me in the days of King Josiah: Have you seen what the backsliding Israel has done? SHE goes on every lofty mountain and under every leafy tree, and SHE played the harlot there.

So we can see a pattern in the Tanach referring to Israel in the singular even as a female. Isaiah 53 is no exception. Israel, the Jewish people are G-d’s suffering servant. The Torah says that each person must take responsibility for his or her own sins -- no one can atone for your sins except for you yourself.

In the very next verse 53:5:
“HE was pained BECAUSE of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through HIS wounds we were healed."

Don’t be duped by mistranslations and misreadings -- Isaiah does not say the servant suffered FOR the sins of others. The servant suffers BECAUSE OF the sins of others. They "did this to him (Israel.)”  

Eventually those who have abused the Jewish people will pay for their crimes:
Deuteronomy 30:7 –
"And the L-rd, your G-d, will place all these curses upon your enemies and upon your adversaries, who pursued you."  

None of Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of jesus in any way. This is just a snippet of proof.

J a g u a r:
DNC and Poe, I enjoy reading you both. Dissecting l, scrutinizing and explaining Jewish Scriptures.