Christianity has rooted on Judaism, Judaism points out what's a mamzer, and Christianity portraits Jesus as a mamzer. (Page 5)

Jaguar Essence: DNC, is correct.
It's unfortunate that uneducated non-Jews presume to know more than Jews about their spiritual inheritance and sources of knowledge.
If we can at least be honest and accept that we don't know instead of presuming to know, can be the start of the middle ground to accept one another, by agreeing to disagree.

Zanjan: Essence, quit beating around the bush. Spit it out.

You are either saying Jews believe Jesus is a false Prophet, or that He's a true Prophet but not their Messiah. I know a number of Jews who've picked one and a number of Jews who've picked the other.

Which are you?

Zanjan: The author of the Zohar was an ordinary man, not a Revelator of God. You're saying he knew as much as Moses. That would be a Messiah.

butttler: Essence--- i dont say i know more than Jewish people...i just post what Gods word says

Jaguar Essence: Zanjan, I believe Jesus is good for Christians, Muslims, and people like you. Jesus not Mohammed are part of my spiritual inheritance.

You see, you presume that Jews believe in exclusivity of salvation, which is incorrect.
Judaic sources of knowledge and spiritual inheritance teach educated religious Jews that non-Jews have equally important and valuable relationship with G-d just as Jews do. As an educated religious Jew, I find that my spiritual home is complete and I don't need anything else beyond what I've, I've absolutely everything in one place.

Jaguar Essence: Zanjan, sure, whatever, you know it girl

Jaguar Essence: Buttler, I can understand that, your message is for Christians, or whoever is meant to be a Christian.
Nonetheless, Christian message is not for us, we're complete; although, I understand why you do what you do. I'm happy you've found your spiritual home.

Zanjan: Essence: "You see, you presume that Jews believe in exclusivity of salvation"

What on earth gave you the idea I believed that? I don't. Christians believe that.

All Jews used to say THEY, alone, were God's Chosen Ones (slightly different because they didn't use the word salvation); but, that changed in the 20th century through education. I know because I was there for half of it.

However, I partly agreed with them because God chose them to be the most persecuted people in history. Not that others weren't persecuted just as badly - Jews just endured it for longer. The part I didn't agree with is that they were God's favorites.

You still didn't answer my question. Either choice - you didn't pick one. Dark chocolate is good for me too - what's "good" wasn't my question.

"I don't need anything else beyond what I've, I've absolutely everything in one place".

So, YOU don't need or want another Messiah. Does that mean other Jews do?

Apokalupto: Butler: “it is unfortunate that you cannot see fundamental specifics with this issue...Holy Spirit did not have physical relations with Mary leading to her pregnancy the word mamzer indicates sexual relations leading to pregnancy outside marriage bed..this was an immaculate conception far beyond the realm of the physical”

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus walked the earth before Mary, and before Abraham. Jesus is the eternal Son of God.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

That means if He wasn’t a bastard before, He can’t be now.

By necessity you must first deny that Jesus is the eternal son of God, and that God doesn't change, who existed and walked the earth before the Immaculate conception. This means that you haven’t actually considered who Christ is in order to apply the law. In other words, not a fair trial.

And just for the record it goes so far as to say that Joseph was Mary’s husband, and Mary was Josephs wife.


Matthew 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. <--- He wants a divorce.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Angel of the Lord calls Mary the wife of Joseph.

Using the Torah and Gospel it is absolutely impossible for Jesus to change the eternal Son of God who existed before Mary to a “bastard” status. Bastard cannot apply, you need human intercourse and human seed. AND needless to say, you can’t be a bastard when you existed before the pregnancy.

Furthermore the law was speaking to Israel, to humans who have natural intercourse and involves human seed. This is obvious, it feels silly just pointing this out. It is dishonest to pretend that the law was ever speaking of a conception without sex and without human seed, that is ludicrous.

This verses surroudning the accusation and the verse itself all assume sexual intercourse and human seed involved.

Deuteronomy 23:1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. (Well this obviously refers to the inability to give seed)

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard (Cant be a bastard without intercourse and human seed) shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. (Cant have your own generation if there is no sex or human seed involved)

Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: (Again, assuming the happen stance of a sexual intercourse with an Ammonite or Moabite as you can’t have a generation of Ammonites or Moabites without human seed and sexual intercourse )

The dishonesty in this thread amazes me. I thought this was about honest Essence, you kept saying that. This is precisely why I revealed that quote in the first place. xrusaoros pegasos's Picture

Even your Mishna explanation assumes sexual intercourse and the involvement of human seed.

This thread is not about the law of Moses, since the law assumes intercourse and human seed in the same verses that are being used against Jesus.

This thread is really about defending Poetry, that’s it. It is a reaction to “save face” by jumping through hoops and applying the law where it never was meant to be applied, and by disregarding Moses and applying nonbiblical laws (Halacha) to Gods perfect word. YOU believe in Halacha, I get that. We believe in the Torah/Tanak and the Gospel/NT

You can make up perceptions and disregard the law of Moses to fulfill your needs and save face. That is your right.

The End.

Zanjan: Pegasos: "Jesus walked the earth before Mary, and before Abraham."

If Jesus had done that, somebody would have mentioned His name; otherwise, His life and meanderings would have been pointless. You're confusing Jesus, the Son of Man, with God. Only Christians have done that, nobody else anywhere at any time has.

Also, God doesn't walk the earth - He has no legs and isn't subject to gravity. He was present before the earth and sun were formed so has no need of support. He's self-subsisting, meaning He doesn't need to eat fish or bread.

However, just for fun, let's go with your supposition and use the Old Testament for this test, since Christians maintain it's true. If you research it carefully, you'll see the Revelators were all pre-existant - that means, there was a time they didn't exist as a Manifestation of God.

Jews should be able to agree on this because the first mention of it is in Genesis 1. There is no way Jesus could conflict with what Moses said. Jesus, Himself, said so.

I agree the New Testament doesnt say that Mary had sexual intercourse.

Def. Miriam Webster Dictionary.

noun: intercourse

1. communication or dealings between individuals or groups.

Mary's first intercourse was of the conversational type with an Angel. She was a virgin at the time. We're led to believe that she had never seen, spoken to or been touched by an Angel prior to this occasion. BUT, something her Uncle had said about her makes us wonder about that. Anyway, she described the vision in detail.

It's evident Mary had told Joseph of the Angelic Prophecy before she left to see her cousin Elizabeth. In those days, women didn't travel alone - they couldn't just set out on such a long journey without telling anyone first.

Joesph would have been in a panic if she had simply disappeared. The police would be swarming, looking for her body! So, Joseph had a long time to think about how this Prophecy would personally affect him - should he marry someone who was mentally disturbed?

Zanjan: Peg wrote: "was minded to put her away privily. <--- He wants a divorce."

Can't get a divorce if one isn't yet married. All he had to do was call off the engagement for some other reason. Maybe he DID put her away - sent her to her Uncle, who was a priest. Good place for those experiencing PTSD.

The only two reasons one marries with a premeditated plan to divorce is to obtain permanent residence in a foreign country OR, to perloin a large divorce settlement.

You're right on one count - a Prophecy is not a bastard.

While Mary was away, Joseph was visited by an Angel, who told him "that which is IN Mary is the Holy Spirit". Who was mentally disturbed now??

The Angel confirmed the *Prophecy* Mary had told him about was the pure truth...but, what the hey, one mentally disturbed person marrying another mentally disturbed person - it's a match.

DontNeedChrist:

No longer following this tripe. I'm out.

Zanjan: Thanks for your announcement. There will be no funeral.

butttler: If the Word of God says it...then....that's that...Colossians 1:16 " For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Gods word declares Jesus Christ is the pre-existent One...and regardless if anyone chooses not to believe His word...not believing cannot make His Word go away

furthermore---every human is appointed to die and then the judgment ( Hebrews 9:27)

what we choose to believe or not to believe carries significant consequences for eternity

Jaguar Essence: butttler

To each their own...

Zanjan: Look at how these people set their own brackets into scripture (specifically, quotes), entering words that were never said! To some, nothing is sacred.

We're all free to keep our hands off. We have no need of tracts because God bestows understanding on whomever He chooses. Personally, I trust GOD to be my guide.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

Your biased hypocrisy and ethical dishonesty is remarkably amusing. The judgement you give on others is the same shit you are doing, yet, you manage not to see yourself doing it.

Zanjan: Thank you for your personal judgment of me - another off topic post, which you seem to think is important to someone.

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

Just pointing out and returning the same judgement you give to others about others, so... "Take it as you giveth."

Zanjan: I don't criticize souls - I judge the things they say/post. If you doubt that, go back and read Butler's last post again. He's hardly the first Christian to put that same corruption in print but even thinking it is the same thing.

When I said "these people", I was referring to a group, which includes Jews, Christians and Muslims, even atheists.

NT says not to add to or take away from a word of it. That command is absent in the OT because it was an unwritten understanding. Since the understanding was soon lost, it had to be re-stated in the NT, adding a threat.

Since the Christians fell away from that command, Islam banned all believers in God from associating their writings with scripture altogether. There's a complete and permanent physical separation.

Since the Muslims still didn't understand what "hands off" the Holy Word and Spirit means, in the Baha'i Faith, all believers were forbidden to interpret any scripture in the world, past and future. Additionally, no notes of anything told to a believer by any member of the Holy Family can be conveyed as authentic or official; as such, these accounts can't be used for teaching the Faith.

Your last gift to me, Essence, sits unused on a dusty shelf, where I expect one day it will be forgotten amid other unopened gifts.

butttler: Zanjan---it appears..please correct me if i am wrong...that you accused me of entering words that were never said?...i quoted scripture word for word..May God abound His Love on you

butttler: Essence--- in some way i too wish it really was "to each his own"....but it is Gods way...John 14:6 "I ( Jesus Christ ) am the Way the Truth and the Life and no one will come to the Father but through Me"...the bible also speaks of some that will attempt to come to God another way but it will be fruitless...John 10:1 " “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber."

Jaguar Essence: zanjan

" I don't criticize souls - I judge the things they say/post."

Same here, I'm doing exactly what you are doing, I'm judging the things you say and post. This is why I said what I said about you.

Jaguar Essence: butttler

"Essence--- in some way i too wish it really was "to each his own"....but it is Gods way...John 14:6 "

The fact you don't accept educated religious Jews aren't part of the Christian experience is irrelevant and inconsequential to me.
G-d Himself allowed Jews to survive to continue to exist regardless of the forces of opposition, like Christianity and Islam to convert Jews and eradicate Judaism; to be validated as the "spiritual Jews" and proclaim to be the continuation of Judaism. As well, it was G-d's will for Israel to be back on the world map, after almost 2000 years of Jews being uprooted from their home.

So what your scriptures say are totally irrelevant for us Jews; because yours is a promise for the future and/or afterlife, while for us Jews is at the present moment through the everlasting Covenant that G-d made with Jews; which we're experiencing it in the present moment, we DON'T need to wait.

Buttler, so to each their own, you wait for yours in the future, while us Jews experience it in the present...

butttler: Essence--- you may choose to believe the NT is irrelevant to you...but it is Most relevant to all mankind...God said this not me...May God bless you Essence