Is the Trinity Doctrine Biblical? (Page 3)

kai malon labe
kai malon labe: Trinity explained @ https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

This article is divided as follows:

Dogma of the Trinity
Proof of the doctrine from Scripture
Proof of the doctrine from Tradition
The Trinity as a mystery
The doctrine as interpreted in Greek theology
The doctrine as interpreted in Latin theology
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kai malon labe
kai malon labe: There was no decision made centuries ago by some priest to invent the Trinity.

"The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time."
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Can't imagine why Theophilus would at all be important. Language changes with each generation, and every technological advancement and fashion trend. While everyone adopts a catchy phrase, those disappear with time unless someone or some agency has forced people to repeat it.

There aren't enough words in the universe to describe God. In the time of Moses, God said who He was; He said, "I am". Later, He described Himself: He said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." How dare we meddle with that?

Our knowledge of the long list of God's attributes is far from complete, and the relationship between man and God isn't decipherable. We understand the concept of rank but we don't bestow the chain of command- the cream simply rises to the top.

That Theophilus judged the Almighty, tells me he was living in a very small world and wasn't very bright. He should have stuck to mentioning the pillars of faith and the clergy should have moved on.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Campion
Campion: For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

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kai malon labe
kai malon labe: "Can't imagine why Theophilus would at all be important."

Good ole Theo; his words are still being quoted 18 centuries later.

Facts do not care about feelings. What one thinks, feels, imagines, etc. matters not when one is seeking Truth. Feelings about a topic are fine as long as one does not expect others to believe them as facts. Theophilus did not judge nor insult God. That would be feelings again...

"Even a fool, if he will hold his peace shall be counted wise: and if he close his lips, a man of understanding." - Proverbs 17:28
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Theophilus did not judge nor insult God."

It's obvious he had no clue that's what he was doing and that wasn't his intention. Well, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Campion pointed out:
"trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God"

If true, it doesn't matter when that experience occurs; meanwhile, no two people can have identical experiences. Whatever the experience, we hope to improve it by deepening our knowledge, correcting our errors, and moving nearer to God. Understanding isn't a transferable coupon.

Two errors the clergy never corrected:
1. instilling and removing pagan influences from Christianity.
2. compelling congregations to incorporate various clerical views.

Campion wrote:

"Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. "

Acceptable to whom? When it's not the real thing, how can it satisfy? How is the persona (Avatar) different from a graven image? We aren't speaking of the Name (s) of God but of His condition and substance - that is, three MALE persons in one.
If we're expressing our experience of God, it can only be performed through the spirit in action.

Evidence is required. The trinity is an assertion, not evidence of reality.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Successive Revelators have addressed the idea of trinity - if it were not an important issue, God would have ignored it. GOD is not ignoring it. The Prophets of God have never disagreed with or contradicted any scripture before or after Them; as such, there is consistency amongst all these religions and that's what we should be looking at.

Here's what They say:

1. The moment anyone forms a conception of God, they're in error - God can't be conceived.
2. There must be no compulsion in religion.
3. The relationship between man and God is entirely private.
4. The relationship between God and mankind is described in His Covenant.
5. All that can be known of God is known only through His Revelators.

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kai malon labe
kai malon labe: Sigh... I bet you are well acquainted with that road...

There can be no discussion with anyone SOS. Have a good day.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: We ALL know that road well, madam.
FYI, we've had three pages of discussion; that's more than I expected it was worth.

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prairwarur
prairwarur: That's the problem you have, Zanjan, respectfully speaking, you believe God cannot connect with us, as we are, on our level. But, my dear, He not only is able, He is willing, He's just waiting for us to ask first. To humble ourselves before Him and let Him know that we know how much we need Him.
He does not want us living in the dark. That's the purpose of Holy Spirit, to teach us. He is right there, nearer than You know or realize. Jesus is about to return, too. I think those who are expecting Him are those who are "ready" and watching for Him.

John 1 clearly spells out this "trinity" message, as do many other Scriptures. Although, "trinity" is not mentioned, the fact the Three In One are clearly introduced. You cannot explain away John, unless you are one who holds to the "corruption theory" and how the Scriptures were changed. Then any point to discuss is gone.
Maybe like this topic? But, I don't see where you are interested in expanding your line of thought, Zan. You believe what you believe, as do all posting here, so probably no one will convince the other.

The Trinity teaching was little more than words to me until I met THE TRINITY personally. I knew Jesus as a child. I knew Him personally as I had never known another human before. And as I grew, I learned more about God. Then when I decided to do exactly as the Bible says to do, I began to pray for Spiritual Gifts, that's when I met Holy Spirit. From that point on, Holy Spirit has taught me as only God can teach.

Holy Ghost was given to us when Jesus left this earth. Jesus called Him our, "Helper, Teacher, Counselor..." Jesus promised us Holy Ghost would teach us all things and lead us into all truth. He will never leave us. He is a "gift" who can be rejected. He won't come unless invited, just like Jesus. We must ask Him in. Until we do, He stands at the door and knocks. Revelation 3:20

Why would anyone say no to this Gift?

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Zanjan
Zanjan: "you believe God cannot connect with us, as we are, on our level"

What do you think the word "connect" means? If you're envisioning two wire cords plugging into each other, you're thinking about equals. OTH, if you're referring to two people speaking to each other, they're not necessarily communicating with each other.

God is love but we're not equal to God. Our souls emanate from Him in the same way that rays of light emanate from the sun. When heavy clouds come in between sun and earth, there is no warmth. Something is missing. There's no reception.

"O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."
(Baha'u'llah, Hidden Words #5)

God doesn't come down to our level - He's sovereign and sanctified above all creation. Instead, He sends a Revelator, Who doesn't belong to the world we live in. As we learn through His Revelators, we come to know God and love Him. This is how we rise up from the earth, nearer to God.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Although, "trinity" is not mentioned, the fact the Three In One are clearly introduced."

The Bible doesn't say "three in one" either. It has a list to memorize.

John didn't introduce anything - Revelation came strictly from Jesus Christ's own lips.

"You cannot explain away John,"

Everyone has failed to prove out the trinity idea to this very day....you can't blame that on John.

"I don't see where you are interested in expanding your line of thought, Zan."

The trinity is not an expansion of thought, it's a primitive pagan notion that predates both Judaism and Christianity. Keep an old pair of shoes long enough, they'll eventually come back into vogue.

No offense, but your personal testimony doesn't mean much on- line as we have no idea what sort of person you are off-line. Everyone here is anonymous so they can feel comfortable to share freely. However, your personal testimony is totally subjective.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: The message were missing is unity with our creator. If you grasp that then a doctrine doesnt matter..
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Yes, you could stretch that triangle into a circle then put all the Christians inside.

I agree that such an attainment tosses all doctrine out the window. On the other hand, if you expanded the circle to include all the religions of God, then you'd understand His unity.
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m_leonora1111
m_leonora1111: I'm going write down the completely wrong doctrine of the Trinity.
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: It is what it is.


1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 13:14
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Colossians 2:9
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 44:6
6 “This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 10:30
30 I and the Father are one.”
Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Matthew 1:23
23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 3:16-17
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
Romans 14:17-18
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Luke 3:21-22
21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Genesis 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Colossians 1:15-17
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 14:9-11
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
Philippians 2:5-8
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
John 10:30-36
30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
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Campion
Campion: There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly defines a trinity----the doctrine is cobbled together from a number of unconnected bible verses using concepts from the Greek philosophical tradition ----- the idea was quite foreign to apostolic times and even the early church fathers --- it reached its final doctrinal form in the 4th century --- this is not the only way of conceiving God
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: The trinity is the best biblical explanation of something that is beyond human understanding. One God in three persons,doesn't make sense to the human mind
.

It is what it is
(Edited by Blackshoes)
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Campion
Campion: For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.
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Campion
Campion: Blackshoes: The trinity is the best biblical explanation of something that is beyond human understanding. One God in three persons,doesn't make sense to the human mind

BTW to say it is Biblical is a bit of a stretch:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The formulation ‘one God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formula that has first claim to the title of the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
(Edited by Campion)
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: Camp It's a biblical theology whether or not it was called the trinity or not. If you have a better way of explaining how God can be three-person. Yet only one God within the same frame
Knock yourself out
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Campion
Campion: For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Since the essence of God is beyond human understanding, no human can explain it. The Bible doesn't try. I agree with Campion that we know what our own relationship is with God because He told us. That's the only thing within our purview.

The only ones who could understand a Revelator's life and relationship with God are other Revelators. Any human who tries to explain that is out of order.
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Blackshoes
Blackshoes: "To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me"
Yet you cannot explain it any better than over 1000 years of theology can.
All the semantics on earth cannot change our inability to understand everything about God
God is above and would be beyond mankind altogether, If God had not become flesh as Jesus

Only one God the father! This is undeniable from a Biblical stance
Jesus is God, Jesus is not the father, undeniable from a Biblical stance
The Holy spirt Is God ' Not the father or Jesus, undeniable from a Biblical stance
(Edited by Blackshoes)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Yet you cannot explain it any better "

He just did. Those who are indoctrinated can't see for the clouds; they're tethered to the earth by the embellishments of traditions, stilting learning.

One doesn't need to understand everything about God, just the elementary grade stuff. Two plus two doesn't change when you learn calculus.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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