Once Saved Always Saved - Eternal Salvation (Page 4)

God is real: really so you are to humble yourself as child....yet by your logic if you are grown cold without love you are OK and saved ? Thats next level man...

Apokalupto: I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth.

God is real: thats the implication and where your point logically goes.Else tell me how come the opposite of this verse doesnt mean you dont get saved

Apokalupto: just because the verse uses the word saved or salvation doesn't mean automatically that we're talking about salvation of the soul, here's a pretty good example Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

we don't know who's being spoken of in verse 12, so yes it is an unclear verse. the context is a time of tribulation, persecution, and people are being murdered. the verses that you use aren't as clear as you think they are the fact is they're not that clear and there are way more clear verses.


for example not only Paul but Jesus own words.
John 10:28-29

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

it's sad to see someone argue for Jesus contradicting himself. there are an abundant of verses that speak of eternal salvation, and the verses that you bring forth are not that clear therefore what is logical since you like to mention that a lot, is to use the clear verses over the non clear verses. Jesus words in the scriptures do not contradict itself, it's a matter of understanding or not understanding what is being spoken. you're likely to think that there are contradictions when you put more stock and dogma in verses that aren't that clear.

God is real: What you said about times being shortened has to do with the tribulation indeed but it has nothing to do with my point.Even thought times are shortened if you do not endure to the end you fail.Another way this is said is this : Whoever denies me before men i will also deny before hte father.That is the same thing.THIS is conditional.This is clear verse.I am not sure whats so unclear.Except those days be shortened etc....has to do with getting killed in the end times.This has nothing to do with the salvation of the individual.But the verse about growing cold and denying christ HAS TO DO WITH SALVATION.Its abundantly clear.

Apokalupto: it's telling to me that you believe the scriptures contradict each other and that you are willing to use a very small minority of scriptures that are not as clear as the overwhelming majority of scriptures. there really is nothing else to be said about that, because it tells me that you're going to believe what you want to believe regardless of how many times the scriptures in abundance say something else, you're going to go with a tiny majority that are not as clear. I do not believe the scriptures contradict each other. I just realized you're trying to convince me that they do. and tell you have faith the scriptures do not contradict each other it is impossible to convince you because you believe what you want.

God is real: 1 its shame that you say i am on the minority when you have like 2-3 verses saying you are perpetually kept WHICH does not deal with conditionality at all and you just want to interpret them as being kept without conditions

2 I am not sure how simple verses that are very popular + parables + clear teachings and even historical biblical deacons and disciples leaving the apostles and so forth IS NOT ENOUGH for you to at least clearly research the issue.

3 You do believe the scriptures contradict each other else you wouldnt claim simple verses are UNCLEAR

4 I present arguments based on what i see.I am not here to convince people.I am just answering objections

Apokalupto: there is no such shame that you speak of. I have not at all tried to attempt to paste as many verses as I could in favor of what I'm saying. in that you were definitely wrong.

you're putting words in my mouth even though I have told you over and over I do not believe that the scriptures contradict each other, I am humble enough to accept I don't have all of the answers but you're accusing me of something I really do not believe in.

you're knocking out the authenticity and authority in your own arguments when you say the scriptures contradict each other. that is a lack of faith first of all in the scriptures in the word of God, and secondly no one can argue for anything and say that it is the absolute truth while at the same time holding that the scriptures contradict each other it's not possible, this is a plain truth, because at that point you're just selecting what you want to believe and that is what you are doing. if I were to believe the same thing that you do that the scriptures contradict each other, then it is my word over yours, and yours over mine, and then we are the authority as opposed to scriptures, deciding ourselves what the truth is.

and lastly I don't have to prove that the scriptures speak much more in abundance of clear verses on salvation by faith without works and of once saved always saved because it is actually a simple fact.

God is real: Bro my only contention is this: YOU claim that you believe that the bible doesnt contradict itself in Your views.That is what you must demonstrate .Just because you say something doesnt make it true.i gave you simple examples where the opposite of the verses that i quoted authomatically means you arent saved.I still havent heard refutation other than these verses being less clear.Until you provide proper interpretation that doesnt contradict the rest OSAS verses then you do have a serious problem explaining those things.Bro...To repeat that the verses are unclear isnt a good point.,I ve quoted you simple verses come on.iF YOU CLAIM those verses dont deal with salvation then present what they deal with and i ll respond why that cannot be the case.I am saying scripture contradicts itself in your OSAS worldview....I believe my worldview harmonizes them better.I am not trying to put words in your mouth but presenting where logically the things you say leads to.I can be wrong but you have to show why that is the case.My questions still remain

What does the opposite of " deny me deny god " verse mean ?
What does the opposite of "endure to the end " verse mean ?
To which group does all the parables where the active person is called servant of the master refer to ?
What happens if the servants get slouthfull lazy and start to beat their servants ?
What happens if you bury your talents even though you knew your master WILL ?
Isnt every tree that doesnt bear fruit cut and burned ?

Apokalupto: you say that you're only contention is that I claim the scriptures do not contradict. that shouldn't even be a reason for contention.

nevertheless I will try as simple as I can but I'm not going to go on and on about it trying to convince you for days on end.

simply this. Jesus said he who loves me keeps my word. how can you keep his word if it contradicts, how do you keep two "supposedly" contradicting scriptures?

and I will remind you once again that I am humble enough to realize that I do not have all of the answers. you have good questions and I may have answers to some of them but I don't have answers to all of them. not having answers does not mean that God's word contradicts itself it means that we do not understand something, and we need to be patient and keep learning and have faith in the word of God.

God is real: I am not sure you understand what i contend.I do not claim the bible has unexplanable contradictions.I think we both believe the bible cannot be in error.I believe OSAS view makes the bible contradict itself.i AM PERFECTLY fine with supposedly no contradiction on my NONE OSAS view.From here you claimed theres no contradiction in your view and thast what i contend and am trying to clarify.The questions i asked do provide contradiction in your OSAS view.Maybe not all can be answered BUT then it does shift the point toward my NON OSAS camp.In that camp i do not believe the bible contradict itself.And if you find a contradict tell me about it and i ll try to answer it.But until you can provide answers to those questions(i can make even more) I think OSAS is not reliable doctrine to have.You are free to hold it though

Apokalupto: me personally not having all of the answers to all of your questions doesn't shift it to anything. firstly because I am an individual maybe someone else is smarter than me more learned than me, secondly no one understands everything no one has answers to everything, not having answers is to be expected from every individual only God has all of the answers and we are to seek him first. I could very well say the very same thing that you did, that you do not have answers to the scriptures that I present, and in fact that's what I've been saying your answers are half answers they're weak, but I do not actually think that that's a reason for why I'm right. your scale for truth is extremely subjective are you aware of that?

you don't even know what you're saying. there are clearly a majority of scriptures in favor of never losing eternal salvation, and in that majority they are most clear.

Jesus said he who believes on me has eternal life. that is present tense, that means if you believe now then you have eternal life at this moment, and then I just posted a scripture above that says he gives you eternal life and you shall never perish. that means that eternal life will not be given to you at some time in the future, you have it now and now that you have it, you shall never die. if you could lose it then you can die.

we are sealed with the holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption, Paul makes this clear quite a few times.


Peter says we have an inheritance incorruptible,
and undefiled,
and that fades not away
and it is reserved in heaven for us.

there are an abundance of verses that are clear like this. so when you take a few verses and you are dogmatic about it and you pick them against these clear verses you are the one creating contradictions.

there are no contradictions.. unless you make them. God's word has no contradictions.

God is real: I am glad we moved on from the contradiction issues.Now let me say this

1 I havent checked the counting of verses for and against OSAS but i SERIOUSLY DOUBT OSAS verses are more than NON OSAS

2 I believe NON OSAS is correct because its EASIER TO HARMONIZE ALL VERSES else i have to be like you and claim things are unclear or not having proper answers to i would say " EASY" ALMOST self explanatory questions,

3 I take no issues with the present tense of getting saved.Sure so what ? Non OSAS people do not argue that point.We do believe when people received christ they are SAVED HERE AND NOW.We just argue all of that can be denied if the person does not persist in the faith and here there are many subcategories of what constitute leaving. None of the verses you posted answer the question of conditionality at all. I do not believe being selaed for the day of redemption means eternal security.iN LIGHT of the context of most verses i would argue its conditional on you remaining in the faith.The holy spirit can be grieved and the bible does say it can leave you.It does say a person can become reprobates. I believe the sealing last as long as you last in the truth

4 Bro just the fact that god threatens to kick you out of hte book of life means you can be kicked aka lost...

Not sure whats so unclear.You take my verses and remove the conditionality part or argue they are not abotu salvation while i take your verses and argue they are all conditional.Theres nothing really substantial in this.The only question would be this. Which worldview answers more questions and is more likely to be true.To all your objections i can add the conditionality part based on the verses and parables i mentioned.All you cna do is argue as i said - they arent talking about salvation or try to argue those verses are not conditional on your behavior.

Apokalupto: what's the point of saying something is sealed with the promise of the holy Spirit unto a certain point of time in the future (AKA day of redemption to the purchased possession) if it could be lost? are you able to actually answer this?

address my points.

for example, you promised me that a bottle of wine will be sealed unto the year 2050. but I break the seal in 2022, was your word kept was the promise kept? how can you keep your promise if I'm able to break the seal before the year that you promised it would be sealed unto?

God is real: the bottle and the wine is kept as long as you dont break it.i would agree with you that if it was this verse only you can argue the wine will always be kept but the rest verses does suggest there are conditions for this.At least thats how i see it.

God is real: also in your example of the bottle.The sealer did sealed the wine.YOU BROKE IT.The sealer kept his word since the sealing is what must be done.Nowhere did he promise to stop you from breaking the bottle.

Also if one adopts your OSAS concept several hard to resolve issues pop up like calvinism.How on earth do you get saved in your system ? You say its by trusting/faith and the regular biblical way but if the person leaves you are to argue he was never saved to begin with which would mean you can follow the instruction of the bible and still NOT know if you were saved or not.It would also suggest that OSAS is only true for the saved and certain people which is pretty deterministic and calvinistic of sorts.It creates a lot of foreknowledge and predestination concerns.

I would grant you that all people who end up in heaven were trully OSAS people.The differnece is whether those that were lost were at some point saved to begin with or not.I would say yes because bible says that christ died and bought ven the false prophets(2 Peter 2:1) BUT how is that true when in OSAS system those who fall away never received his salvation and sacrifice to begin with ?

Also i would point this...IF YOU CAREFULLY READ 2 Peter 2:1 It says the false prophets denied EVEN THE MASTER THAT BOUGHT THEM meaning....those were people that knew him as master...most likely apostates

Apokalupto: let's see if your reasoning holds up.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

two things I want to point out in this verse. one, the born again believer does not come into condemnation. two, the born again believer has already passed from death unto life, and has eternal life now presently. they have already crossed the line.

a new baby has already been born, he cannot back out.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

that means there are two creations the one that was born from my mother and father and the one that was born from God, there are two.

new baby cannot back out because it is born of spirit, it already has eternal life it has already crossed the line from death into life it cannot come into condemnation and it cannot sin and cannot deny Christ but glorify him. so tell me, what part of sealed do you not understand? how can that which is born of the flesh overpower that which is born of spirit and unseal the seal of promise for the spirit-born new creation that's already been born into eternity and cannot come into condemnation?

John 10:28-29
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

is he which is born of the flesh able to bring that which is born of God into condemnation? I don't think so.

answer these scriptures without adding nonsense to the mix like before.

God is real: Why dont you just type in google OSAS debates and watch some ? There you can be presented many arguments way better than i ever will.I mean i can try and answer the points you raised but why not just watch debates on this.There you can see better dynamic on such topics

m_leonora1111: Once save forever save! That's Satan statement. Read God statement here. Ezekiel 18.

ipirate2: Hi X P.

I decided to reply to you with a question.

My usual question, what did you do to earn hell, usually goes un-answered, so I will not bother here as I am sure you have no answer either.

Given that, and that I have an O.P. that trashes yours, just my opinion of course, let me ask,

------------------------

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.



Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

God is real: pretty much all of your questions were answered long ago by chrisitanity if you research it well....

ipirate2: I have , and yours is the dumbest statement I have ever heard.

If you were talkin pre your stupid literal reading of myths, I might agree as I see the beauty that the myth tries to show.

Supernatural belief is stupid belief.

Just how stupid do you want people to think you are?

Regards
DL

God is real: enough people worldwide report paranormal phenomenons as for you to claim its stupid.70% of the world is believing in higher power.If you want to critique the chrsitian worldview in specific sure but to talk in generalities is bad.There are far more educated people with PHDs in philosophy than us who also have supernatural beliefs so your premise is dumb.Give concrete reasons since nobody cares about your innate opinions of whats dumb and smart to believe in

GeraldtheGnome: Grammatical errors were made on this forum. That aside there is one question. How can any of us prove that eternity is even possible let alone certain ?