They Call This Spiritual Warfare (Page 3)

Zanjan
Zanjan: Flower, you make some good points. I agree it's not power that corrupts.

Knowledge is power. As in the story of Adam and Eve, you have power with the knowledge of good but not when you have the knowledge of evil. For humans, the two are like oil and water - they don't mix. You must choose one or the other. Eve was enticed by the thought of having more power than she already did.

Yeah, I have a pretty good grasp of the criminal mind; I grew up surrounded by criminals; they were in my own family and their friends were criminals too. Everywhere they go, so goes the storm and the rain of tears.

If that's all you know and grew up with, that's your home; you're skilled at living in that atmosphere so will unconsciously seek it out.

One day, I had a breakthrough and realized that. I chose a different world and have never looked back. It's a world of calm understanding, freedom of spirit, full of love, vison, trust in God and secure in His protection. He has never let me down. My friends are genuine and have never made me cry except when they've died.

As Prair said: "“If I am to be secure, I want something proven to offer that security.”

We all want that. Not many find it.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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The Dark Flower
The Dark Flower: lol I think you might have missed the point I was trying to make.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Nope. I merely focused on what we both agreed on.

If we agree God is that Great, Almighty Dictator, then He's the only Dictator we can trust won't get booted out of office. We know He's still there because of what happens to us. He rewards His lackies well. He's pretty smart, eh.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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The Dark Flower
The Dark Flower: Pretty sinister if you ask me.
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prairwarur
prairwarur: Hi, Flower! I'm not sure at all what god here you are referring to, but it is not the "God of the Bible". First of all, because the Bible does not describe God as you have, so obviously that's not your source of information about God. You need the true source to know.

Scripture says that God is good. 1 John 4:8 says, "God is love." First John 1, 1 John 2, 3 and chapter 4, all speak to the attributes of God and His love. It even says if a man says he loves God but hates his brother, then he is a liar and cannot know God if he does not know and have love for his fellow man.
The Bible tells us that God is perfect and far more advanced than any of mankind. No human, in our present state and condition, can even understand God, who He is, how He thinks, or too much about Him, because it is far above our ability to do so. A finite mind making attempts to understand the infinite.

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

The other issue you've reversed and it is that mankind is already destined for "hell" or better said, eternity without God, and not by God's doing, rather by their own choices. Separation from God is the outcome that man makes by his choice to sin or live in sin. This is his choice made by his own free will. It is not God's doing.
God can have no part of sin, no sin, not even a little white lie, because He is perfect. Mankind who chooses sin intentionally separates himself from God. I put hell in quotation marks because the word hell is not in the Bible, yet Jesus describes certain scenarios of what "separation from God" is like. Those range from flames and fire to complete darkness, but maybe you can look them up in Scripture to gain some understanding.
This judgment is spoken of in John 3. Most folks know one famous verse from John 3 and it is verse 16, "For God SO LOVED the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." But few take to heart the deeper message of Jesus and why He came unless they read further.
Verse 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

Jesus came to take on mankind's sins and remove the judgment man chose. Mankind was already doomed, judged and condemned because of sin. God made a way out of this damnation. Mankind chose to alienate God by disobedience. Jesus fixed that. Man brought about his own separation from God by sinning, and Jesus closed the gap. Mankind chose sin, destruction, and death. Jesus came to take on that sin and give us life. Taking on that sin means He made it His own sin and removed it from us, if we choose that.

You've heard it said - "Jesus saves" and not Jesus condemns. satan is he who condemns. Jesus broke that condemnation by being the one in sin sacrificed for us.

The Bible states this clearly -
"He who had no sin became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God."

Jesus told us that "The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy but I have come to give life..."

So the blame you are trying to lay on God is unjust, as it is God who decided to make a way out for sinful mankind. Mankind chose to be separated from God, but God said, "No" and He sent His only Son to pay the price for mankind's sin, therefore, reconciling mankind to God so he won't spend eternity in "Hell".
A different way to put this would be to say that one committed a crime and was caught, sentenced and put in prison. They are there in jail, stuck, because of their own "crime", and we call this justice. Now let's say that God sent Jesus to pay the bond and buy this criminal his freedom. If Jesus shows up and pays the bail, but the person in jail refuses to accept this "gift", then in jail they stay. Someone came to pay their bail for them so they can have freedom, but they refuse to accept this benevolent act, and although they have the ticket to freedom, by refusing it they are doomed to stay in jail. That would be no one's fault but his own. Someone came to see to his freedom but he rejected it. He decided to stay there and be punished. It's called a choice. Not a very wise choice, it appears, but no one is to blame but this criminal who is found guilty of his own crime. Truth - he committed the crime and he's doomed to pay the price for his own crime. That's what mankind does to himself. The choice is there to make, life or death. God gave us the right to choose our fate. Choose life!

Shalom
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Flower wrote: “I find Christians fascinating……..”

I tend to think of them as mild and generous folk but very sleepy, spiritually. Generalizations, of course. Do you also find Jews and Muslims fascinating?
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The Dark Flower
The Dark Flower: I'm fascinated with Muslims too but not Jews. The only Jews that interest me are the ones who are against Isreal's existence.
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prairwarur
prairwarur: You guys, it's just the words of a famous guy that I chose to use here and I'm not saying this is what I do or do not believe. This is the full quote and source.... Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
John Dalberg-Acton
I'm only trying to make the point that people can be corrupted and some are absolutely power hungry, so much so that they will do anything imaginable to get in power or to retain the power they have gained. Power is an absolute drug, as greed is, and those are probably the most driving forces we find today, especially in politics.

Zan, I'm not offended because I know you do not know me, but you did turn this into a personal attack which isn't kewl, chic. Never-the-less, you are free to do, act, speak, etc. as you choose. It doesn't close the divide between people when you insult them, nor does it do a thing to promote peace or help in bad situations, but I know it is still the point some people reach, and for whatever reason they show personal attack and insult over understanding and connection. It's easier to insult and shut down your opponents remarks than to listen and understand, or at least try to understand and bridge the divide.
You can ascribe the word "dictator" to God if you choose, but please remember He did choose to give us our own free will which I doubt any dictator would do. Free will = FREEDOM. Notice, even the Constitution states that this is our GOD GIVEN right. Freedom! God said it is our right and not privilege, but anyone can believe what they choose to believe, right or wrong, true or false.
Zan, yes I did remark that there are many other threads on government and what is going on today, so I will be finished here discussing the point you diverted us with - ie. people at a Trump event not wearing masks or distancing. I don't really mind that you chose this topic to divert our attention, and I did entertain you all by discussing it, but for many reasons I think I'll bow out now. One reason is this is not the thread to discuss it, and the other is when anyone stoops to personal attacks on another, then the topic is going to die. Nothing ever gets settled by insulting and demeaning one another.
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The Dark Flower
The Dark Flower: Sounds like God is absolutely corrupted since he wields absolute power which corrupts.
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prairwarur
prairwarur: Flo, I meant to address your comment but neglected to include it, so here I go before bed and leaving this topic.
You said, "PyroclasticFlo: "the non mask group" is being persecuted. oh woe! "
We were talking about a group of people whom have very valid reasons why they cannot wear masks, not the "non-mask group". You completely ignored all that was said and grouped everyone into your own ideas, condemnation and judgement of being "non-maskers". You said straight up that someone who won't conform is being "selfish", so does that mean they should suffer more than the rest of us, and just "bite the bullet" for the rest of mankind? "The Greater Good"? That's pretty easy to tell someone else to suffer when most likely if it were you, you'd not want to suffer.
And the point still remains that folks with disabilities also have rights, folks with PTSD or mental issues, too, and no one has the right to tell them how much they must suffer and endure. It's often what society does demand, but it's not just a group of "non-maskers" that we mentioned. What society is doing completely invalidates their person by attempting to tell them what they must do, no matter the personal consequences to them.
Are the deaf being discriminated against? Yes, they lost a very important means of communication and understanding, but oh well? Does someone with asthma or heart conditions not count?
I guess it's easier to just marginalize these folks, ignore their important issues and demonize them along with anyone else who does not conform, because understanding the issues takes too much time and effort.
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prairwarur
prairwarur: I'm so tired now that I can't see what I am typing and I must get to bed, but before I go, Flower, God is either dictator as you say or think, or God is love as the Bible says and how I think of Him, but He definitely cannot be both.

C.S. Lewis wrote that Jesus was either a lunatic, liar or Lord.

He cannot be all three. He can only be one. If He was not crazy, which few doubted His sanity and intelligence, and He did not lie, and no one ever accused Him of being a liar, then He is Lord. We have to sort that out, think for ourselves and decide.
I would have to re-read what you'd written previously, Flower, to get a good grasp of why you think He is a dictator, other than what I have already addressed, but I can tell you this, He cannot be both love and hate. Weigh it out for yourself. I know you've said you have no interest in reading the Bible, but I know of no other authority to tell us about God. Anything other than Scripture is only man's idea and I already told you I believe what is written in the Bible and mankind can never, in this present form, understand God.
So, you will decide for yourself, either God is who He has said He is, or He lied and is the "dictator" you have accused.

Shalom, beloved and take care.

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prairwarur
prairwarur: Dictator definition, a person exercising absolute power, especially a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession

God created us with free will to make our own choices. He will never go over our own free will. He will allow us to make our own choices throughout life - good or bad choices.
Dictators oppose personal freedom. Although God has sovereign power, He still does not exercise this power to subdue people. God will allow us to choose Him or to walk away from Him. This type of God given freedom can never be denied.
Sometime if you will, read the writings of those who survived the concentration camps. One of my favs is Dr. Viktor Frankl. He tells us that the one freedom man has that can never be taken away from him is his right and power to think as he wishes. The one freedom no one can take away, according to Dr. Frankl, is your ability to choose how you respond to any given situation.

If God were the dictator you claim then you could not reject Him as you do. You would not have the power, nor the freedom to do so.
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The Dark Flower
The Dark Flower: I agree with the definition of Dictator you have stated because it is accurate which is why I believe the God of the Bible is a dictator.

If God gave us Free will to make our own choices and if he will never go over our free will, then he would not punish us for choosing to not worship or serve him like he is our King/Lord.

If God gave humanity free-will then nobody would be punished in the eternal flames for the choices they make in the life we live now. Everyone has a heaven of their own in the afterlife that's best suited for each and every individual.

But when a God tells a person they must serve and obey him in order to live eternally or burn eternally as punishment for being rejected, then that makes that God an Authoritarian Dictator-like entity because that is exactly what dictators have done in human history

A dictator says "You're free to do as you please and think how you want. But if I don't agree with what you do and how you think, you will be tortured slowly till the day you die as punishment. Your free and you have the choice to serve me under my authoritarian regime or be punished for rejecting me and my regime."

The Illusion of Free Will is not Free Will.
Free will means you're free to think for yourself and do as you please without the threat of being punished for it. God is an Authoritarian, not a Libertarian. There is no true Liberty with God.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Prair, we know what lust is - it's the dark and seedy side of desire.

"Power is an absolute drug"

The influence people lust after is an illusion - it's external and entirely dependant on the acceptance of the people. Others decide how long they want to invest in a falling snowflake.

Whereas the power of God is internal and NOT dependant on others - it's a beneficent feature of the enlightened soul, which never dies. Love is a creative force. Love of self is NOT a power.

"Zan, I'm not offended........., but you did turn this into a personal attack"

I disagree. Telling the truth isn't an attack of any kind; you'd only think that if you didn't love the truth. That anyone is insulted by different perspectives is a sign of their own existing internal conflict. One pities the soul who throws a tantrum when they don't get their own way.

My job is not to prevent or subdue someone else's anger but to eliminate prejudices through education ........and, I don't force it on them. I'm not a contrarian, who repeatedly harps on the same thing without realizing the audience has walked away.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Flower wrote: "The only Jews that interest me are the ones who are against Isreal's existence. "

So, you find *fantasies* interesting, not the people themselves.

You're speaking of people who believe that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Jewish Messiah and that the state of Israel is a rebellion against God.

I find that amusing, not interesting - that is, imagining one can manipulate God, that God is powerless do things without their consent. Enslaving God is a common position held amongst all religious groups that are sold on exclusivity.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Flower wrote: "If God gave us Free will to make our own choices and if he will never go over our free will, then he would not punish us for choosing to not worship or serve him like he is our King/Lord."

That would only be true if there was NO choice. You're confusing nature with intellect and humans with God.

Furthermore, God does go over our free will from time to time - that is, when you have to suffer something you didn't choose for yourself, or when He protects you from a bad decision. Echoing Prair, He will never do anything that's bad for you.

God holds us accountable for everything we do because we have the power to do that. This is how our worth is tested. Free Will permits us to be genuine.
God's desire is for us to reach a place where we willing choose the same things for ourselves as He's chosen for Himself. Only THEN would we ever want to be His puppet.

I agree that "burning eternally" is wishful thinking on the part of those who delight in revenge.

Just as we have the ability in this world to move closer to God, so we have that same ability in the next world. Everyone eventually returns to God. The only difference is that in the next world, it's more difficult because we can't use the same means.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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The Dark Flower
The Dark Flower: I'm interested in people, not fantasies. No offense but talking to you feels really unproductive. You misrepresent what I say and twist what I say to suit your own narrative. Not a fan of talking to people who do that.
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prairwarur
prairwarur: I agree, Flower, but Zan, you cannot see this. You speak "your truth" which appears to be judging me, then you expect us all to think since Zan said these things then of course that's truth.

Now, that is an illusion!

It's not just me who feels condemned and judged by your words, Zan, because you reject any authority but your own, which maybe that is the right way, but it is never the right way to try to judge others, and you do. You think you have me all figured out, as one example, but you can't imagine how far off base you really are. It's not a good look on you anyway to play arm-chair psychologist.

You are quite wrong in all that you've speculated about me, but to let you fully understand God is my Lord, my Savior, so there's no "internal conflict" going on here at all. I just don't care that much what you think of me, nor anyone else, for that matter. I think folks who believe they have it "all figured out" delude themselves. Jesus said He alone is the way, so mixing and matching and putting in our own ideas ain't going to work. But God will let you do that if you choose.

I know exactly who I am in the Lord Jesus Christ. He loves me, He did not condemn me, and that's all that matters to me. His Word reminds us to "Love one another as you love yourself." He also said we are to love them as He has loved us! He told us to go make disciples of all mankind, so that's quite important to me also.
He said feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison, and I do. That is the utmost responsibility of all of us as human-kind, to carry one another, see to widows and orphans, and lift the burdens of the oppressed.

Frankly, everything other than this is just pure BS. IMHO Shalom

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Flower: "You misrepresent what I say......"

Maybe you should be more articulate in what you're communicating. Everyone has room for improvement. Yours would be how to hide your red flags but I have hunch God doesnt want you to.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Priar: "It's not just me who feels condemned and judged by your words, Zan, because you reject any authority but your own,."

Who's doing the judging now, eh?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I think conversation is better served by not talking about each other. Stick to the material and some might even become enlightened.
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PyroclasticFlo
PyroclasticFlo: prair said "He said feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison, and I do." well, i hope you wear a mask around sick, hungry and imprisoned. their lives are hard enough w/o you giving them covid 19.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: We could look on the bright side of Covid. Every living creature was created by God, including the virus. Covid brought many people together who normally wouldn't have that kind of time for each other. The government responded to those who'd lost their jobs by making sure they had food and their rent was paid. For awhile, people stopped dissing the government as the be all and end all of bad guys.

Covid taught the sloppy and unhygienic to wash their hands without hurting their feelings. This means a reduction in the transmission of other types of communicable disease, especially between humans and animals.

We've learned how to save time and money by working from home, cutting down air pollution, burning fossil fuels. We've been saving money from ridiculously over-priced rental space. Those greedy landlords can't give it away now and the corporate savings are passed on to you, the consumer. The list goes on.

Yes, people die but it's all in the name of liberty, freeing us from former limitations.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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PyroclasticFlo
PyroclasticFlo: lol zan, i'm sure the families and friends of the 194 THOUSAND dead American covid victims find comfort in such a shiny silver linings.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: They could have been killed in a tornado, firey plane crash, terrorist attack, or cancer. Since when do we get to choose our own death?

I'm not minimizing the impact at all. We all share some responsibility in any of those outcomes. It's just that the deaths are grouped and not combined with any other devestation, such as the wildfires in the USA right now.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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