Why Do the Rabbis Defame Daniel the Prophet?

JX Amaro
JX Amaro: It may come as a surprise to some that Judaism does not consider Daniel a prophet. For most people, the claim that the Biblical Daniel is a prophet seems self-evident and beyond dispute. Let's investigate this oddity.

First, let me verify Rabbinical Judaism's “party line” that Daniel is NOT a prophet:
“According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.”
Source: “Judaism 101.” Here is the link for fact-checking (go to bottom of the page):
https://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm

Wow! Talk about slippery definitions! Re-read that a couple times and try to see if you can find any rational reason why these “visions of the future” should NOT be considered prophecy. (Note: The American Heritage Dictionary defines prophecy as: “A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.”)

Of course, it wasn't always that way. Josephus, the first century Jewish historian, classified Daniel as a prophet.
“...we believe that Daniel conversed with God; for he did not only prophesy of future events, as did the other prophets, but he also determined the time of their accomplishment.”
Source: “Antiquities” 10:11.7. Here's the link (go to the bottom of the page again):
https://ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-10.htm

Moreover, Jews in the the Dead Sea Scrolls took it for granted that Daniel was a prophet:
“It is as it is written in the Book of Daniel the prophet, "The wicked act wickedly" and the righteous shall be made white and be purified.”
Source: Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q174. Here's the link (go to the last paragraph):
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls/4Q174

So why did the rabbis of Judaism deny prophet status to Daniel?
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro:
Easy answer: Daniel is clearly on target in predicting the arrival of the Messiah in the First Century and the rabbis – having rejected Jesus – felt the need to obfuscate that embarrassing fact. Accordingly, bye-bye Daniel the Prophet.

Here is a fairly clear elaboration of Jesus being the object of Daniel's prophecy:
https://todaysdailyblessing.com/daniel-predicts-jesus-is-messiah-simple-version-of-70-weeks-prophecy/


Don't believe that the rabbis and “sages” of old believed the messiah would come in the first century? This is from the Talmud, Sanhedrin 97A-B:
“The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation (Adam to Abraham); two thousand years the Torah flourished (Abraham to First Century); and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.”
Source:
http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html#PARTb

Yes, the Talmudic “sages” concede that the Messiah was scheduled to come in the first century, but they decided the Messiah didn't come due to their “sinning.” I guess it didn't occur to them that the Messiah DID come and they rejected Him. (Later rabbis would place a “curse” on anyone who attempted to predict the coming of the Messiah – Maimonides for example, in his Mishneh Torah.)

Thus, we see that in denying Daniel prophetic status the rabbis are engaged in “damage control.” Daniel has to be rejected as a prophet for two reasons: 1) To deny that Jesus is the Messiah. And 2) To save Rabbinical Judaism from the embarrassment of admitting that their “Moshiach” (or whatever) didn't come within the appointed time slot.

This second point can't be emphasized too strongly. IF the “Moshiach” didn't arrive at the appointed time, THEN the whole of Rabbinical Judaism collapses as a fraud and/or farce (take your pick).

You can now clearly see why the rabbis have to engage in twisted pretzel logic and goofy mindgames to deny that Daniel was a Prophet.
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: I've heard the Jewish argument from a rabbi say something to the affect that, if the NT didn't quote it why do you believe it, don't you think the NT would quote that?

The NT also doesn't mention the destruction of the Temple. Pretty big event don't you think? both events come from Daniel.

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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: what do you think of Numbers 12:6? because Daniel had dreams as well.
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: @Xrusaoros: I saw a video of Rabbi Tovia Singer – never a font of wisdom – making the talking point that St Paul never mentions Daniel, so therefore Daniel’s 40 Weeks vision isn’t relevant to Jesus. I didn’t find his argument compelling.

Numbers 12:6: he said, "Listen to my words: "When there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, reveal myself to them in visions, I speak to them in dreams.

For anyone who really wants to deep dive the issue, Daniel’s “visions” are described by way of two different words: “Mareh” and “Chazown.” For example:
Daniel 8:26: “The vision (Mareh) of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision (Chazown), for it concerns the distant future.”

As I understand it, Mareh means vision/appearance and Chazown means vision/revelation.

Make of this what you will.
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: Hmmm, no responses from "the usual suspects." I'll accept that as a concession.
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: Ill respond.

What are you trying to debate? The spiritual attainment of Daniel? The conspiracy that Jews are trying to disqualify Daniel because he accurately predicted Jesus?

Im not sure what your trying to achieve with this one.

Daniel is in the Tanakh right? So why would Jews make Daniel a source of scripture if they disagree with him?

Without a proper understanding of Judaism. How can you make these claims?

I would study cycles in Jusism before I even begin debating Daniel.

Remember when interpreting scripture. This is a go to!!!


New King James Version
That which has been is what will be, That which is done is what will be done, And there is nothing new under the sun.


Also here is a valid explanation I found online concerning Daniels visions

According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.
(Edited by amoregrowers)
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: @amoregrowers: LOL, I thought the point of contention was made pretty clear in the first paragraph. Let me restate it clearly: Christians claim Daniel is a prophet, Jews do not.

In paragraph 2, I cited a contemporary Jewish source – which you then cited – stating that Jews believe there were 55 prophets in the Scriptures. Daniel is not included. Oded, Hanani, Neriah and a variety of other obscurities are. How odd. (To say it again, the definition of “prophet” used by Judaism seems highly stylized, counter to basic logic and cynically retrofitted to meet their theological agenda.)

In paragraphs 3 and 4, I document that in earlier times Daniel WAS considered a prophet – by Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example.

I then ask the question of why do Jews, since the triumph of “Rabbinical Judaism” that followed the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, deny what Jews before that point had always accepted as obvious: that Daniel was a Prophet. And one of the greatest.

In the second post, I go on to offer my own two-fold answer. 1) The prophecy of 70 weeks in Chapter 9 (to which there was a link offering a fairly simple explanation). 2) To mystify Jews so as to serve the will-to-power of the cynical rabbis that hi-jacked the Jewish community and spiritually enslaved them to the Talmudic death cult that has it’s origins at the Yavne School.

As per your claim that I don’t understand Judaism, I think I understand it quite well enough. Judaism derives from Rabbinical Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism derives from the Yavne school AFTER the destruction of the Temple (70 AD). The founder of the Yavne school was the slippery weasel Johanan ben Zakkai whom, with his henchmen, ambitious sleazeballs like Rabbi Akiva, were the Myth-Makers of Judaism. These rabbis created the heretical cult of Judaism. These rabbis invented the Talmud (founded on their Oral Torah Myth) and used it to pervert the Holy Scriptures to suit their collective will-to-power. Key to maintaining that cult is to blind Jews to the reality that Jesus is the Christ and this requires “de-propheting” Daniel and placing a curse on any Jew who tries to work out when the Messiah will come.

Have I adequately addressed your concerns?
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: The way I personally understand Daniel is

He was a man of great wisdom. Talmud yoma 77a

He had the Rosh Hakodesh (Spirit)

He interpreted dreams

He understood the writings of other prophets. He quoted Jeremiah.

He was a man of prayer insight and wisdom. To the degree he was added to Jewish canon.


So its my understanding Daniel was/is a sage.

Which according to Talmud is greater then prophesy. Bava Batra 12a


So why argue about his ability to have a prophetic experiance when he had a greater gift?

You think Jews make Daniel less.. when in reality the Jews make him more.

Your the one bringing Danial down and the other Holy Jews in history.

Also, Daniel held the Honorific title "son of man" Daniel 8:17


The masters of Kabbalah point out that Daniel was privy to clearer prophetic visions than those of Ezekiel, despite not being a prophet like his colleagues, Chagai, Zecharia and Malachi.The Kabbalists explain that Daniel was unlike the other prophets in that he was not appointed by G‑d to convey and publicize Divine messages of prophecy as the others were.Because his visions would not be shared, he was permitted to perceive them with greater clarity and intensity. Talmud Megillah 3a.
This is from a chabad article online

(Edited by amoregrowers)
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: Oy vey, sometimes I wonder if amoregrowers is a wake-and-bake pothead. Where to begin?

First, he doesn't deal with the essential question of Daniel the prophet. Instead he engages the distraction of discussing Daniel's wisdom and spirit and so on. Apparently it is “not kosher” to simply admit that Daniel is a great Prophet.

Second, on his understanding that Daniel is a “sage,” there is a brief mention of a Daniel (“Daniel #3”) returning from Babylon, but the spelling of the name is different, which has led some to think that it is a different Daniel, but this hardly matters. The use of the word “sage” here is generic, not the specific “Sage” as in “the Sages” referenced in the Talmud, and this brings us to the next point.

When amoregrowers quotes from the Talmud – Bava Batra 12a – he seems not to have read the selection for context. The word “Sage” here references post-70 AD rabbis; and the selection says that the “Sages” have replaced the prophets in possession of the Holy Spirit. It then goes on to say that the “Sages” are greater than the prophets, which only underscores my point that the Talmud and the “Sages” exist to pervert the Holy Scripture, thus creating the heretical cult of “Rabbinical Judaism.” Yes, according to the Talmud, the “Sages” are greater than the Prophets and the Talmud trumps the Torah. How can any sane person not see this as an open admission to heresy???

Here is a link to read Bava Batra 12a (the relevant portion is toward the end):
https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Batra.12a?lang=bi

Note: “ag” added to his comment the last paragraph while I was writing this, and I don't want to bother myself to rewrite the whole thing. On the last paragraph – the Kabbalah stuff:

This is just more goofy mindgames. In short, the sleazy Chabadniks are saying: Daniel is a prophet, but he's not a prophet because we say so. Maybe that makes sense when you're stoned, I wouldn't know. Better answer: Daniel is a Prophet and his 70 Weeks prophecy accurately predicts Jesus! Thread-readers can decide this issue for themselves.
(Edited by JX Amaro)
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: jx AMALEK, when do you start counting? Backwards from the death of jesus? Leads you to ZERO significant event.

Plus Daniel is clearly talking about 2 anointed ones. One is clearly Cyrus.

Isaiah 45:1Thus said the LORD to Cyrus,His ANOINTED ONE— (mashiach )Whose right hand He has grasped, Treading down nations before him, Ungirding the loins of kings, Opening doors before him And letting no gate stay shut:

Then Daniel says an "anointed one "will be cut off at the destruction of second temple.

This is either. King Agrippa II the Hasmonian King or the High priest ( entire priesthood)

But Aaron the high priest was anointed with sacred oil, hence the title of the "anointed priest"; other passages have it that all priests were anointed (Exodus 28:41, 30:30; Leviticus 7:36, 10:7; Numbers 3:3).


So it is obvious that Daniels 70 weeks 490 years was the time between the destruction of the first temple to the destruction of the second temple.

So the 70 years between the destruction of first temple and building of 2nd temple was punishment. As stated by Jerimiah.

So apart from 70 literal years of exile there were 70 week 490 years of punishment requiered to wipe out sins of first temple era.

Now had the Jews not sinned during 2nd temple the punishment would have been complete and righteousness restored and the Third temple and messianic era would have begun immediately, and the final redemption would not have been delayed.

Jesus timeline does not quite fit. Its close but no cigar....

So trying to attack my character does not make you right nor convincing.

So if Jews proclaim Daniel is not speaking of Jesus then he probably isnt.

It's not to disqualify Daniel. If Jews thought Daniel was wrong they would have removed his book and considered it not scripture!

Not sure why you want to paint this evil image of Jews. Are Jews preventing you from something? Do Jews block you from Jesus? explain your insecurities with Judaism. They... actually know their scripture better then you do...






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JX Amaro
JX Amaro:
Wow! We have a live one here. For the most part, I am satisfied that I have stated my case and thread-readers can make up their own mind on the basic question: Is Daniel a Prophet as Christianity claims, or is Daniel NOT a prophet as Judaism claims (see paragraphs 1 and 2 of my original posting). (I am considering it defamation to deny Daniel the status of Prophet.)

Now in regard to the scattershot:

As per Daniel's 40 Weeks prophecy itself (or any of the prophetic material in Daniel), that really isn't the focus of the thread. Needless to say, it is the cause of controversy and many writings have been made by knowledgeable scholars on the subject. I am not so deluded about myself to think I can offer a verse-for-verse commentary that will explain every word. I offered a link suggesting that the 40 Weeks prophecy referenced Jesus and thread-readers can decide for themselves the quality of the interpretation.

As per the “Amalek” bit, I am sure I don't have to remind you (amoregrowers) of Laws 611 through 613, inclusive. Of course, Christians believe the Old Law and the Old Covenant have been replaced by the New Law and the New Covenant. However, the Old Law may give some useful glimpses on certain things. YHWH – a name Christians proudly speak of and glorify – calls for the destruction of Amalek in every generation. Amalek represents the enemies of God and God's Chosen People. And since the time of Jesus, the Chosen People have been the CHRISTIANS. Furthermore, it seems to me that the anti-Christians around here (like you) who refer to Jesus as “jesus,” “mamzer jesus,” and “yoshke” are clearly establishing themselves as the ENEMIES of God (YHWH), and God's Messiah (Jesus) and God's Chosen People (Christians). What? You can dish it out, but you can't take it? If you want to know who Amalek is, you might want to look in the mirror, or have a talk with the ever-inflamed DNC.

Oh, and the last paragraph was just too rich! A) I don't paint an evil image of Jews, I paint an evil image of the “Dictatorship of the Rabbitariat” that has spiritually enslaved the Jews and has waged a “dirty war” against Christianity for 2,000 years. B) Jews don't block me from Jesus, but the false rabbis sure try to block other Jews from Jesus! (They (the rabbitariat) also work to undermine the foundations of the Christian Faith.).C) I have no insecurities with Judaism, LOL. I could go on and on with a deconstruction of Judaism and exposing it as a heretical (spiritual) death cult.

Let me finish by quoting from the lyrics of Stairway to Heaven: “Yes, there are two paths you can go by / But in the long run, there is still time to change the road you're on.”

Hallelujah! Christ is Risen!!
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: Go ahead and deconstruct the death cult "Judaism" then when your done remember your Messiah was one of them....
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: you are manipulating the conversation amore.
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: I made the point that Daniel was more then a prophet. He was one of the wisest men ever, and wisdom is greater then prophetic experiance. Jews do not discount Daniel he is part of their scriptures.

I have clearly stated what Daniel was expressing according to Judaism. Daniel is Jew, a Jewish scripture, and filled with the Spirit.

So trying to assassinate my character, and the character of some of the holiest minds in history is really disturbing. Im not going to believe for a second that Jews are cursed for counting Daniels prophesy. That is silly and Ignorant.

So whats the problem exactly with Jews and their belief in their scripture??

Ive yet to meet a rabbi or Jew that blocks anyone from their religion.

But I have met Christian leaders who have blocked people from G-d, or tried.

Facts DO not care about your feelings!
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: @amoregrowers: I certainly do remember that Jesus, St Paul and the rest of the early Christians were Jewish. The Judaic "death cult" began AFTER 70 AD at the Yavne School. But that’s a subject for a different thread. Maybe in the future I will start a thread entitled something like, “On the Origin & Foundational Mythology of Rabbinical Judaism.”
(Edited by JX Amaro)
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:
TERMS AND PHRASES USED BY JX AMARO:

heretical cult of “Rabbinical Judaism.”

death cult "Judaism"

The Judaic "death cult"

So basically, the Rabbis lied, not the Christians.

Judaism is a COUNTERFEIT built on manipulative lies and frauds.

cynical rabbis that hi-jacked the Jewish community

sleazeballs like Rabbi Akiva, were the Myth-Makers of Judaism

trashy Chabadniks

Everyone knows it's the Talmudic Book of Lies that corrupted the Holy Scriptures

———

There is no reason to crawl down into the sewer and try to reason with such repulsive and misguided hate. This same person who refers to Chabad as trashy goes to their website to cut and paste proofs for his arguments. This same person who calls ancient sages and rabbis liars and frauds goes to great lengths to quote them to support his anti-semitic diatribes. This same person runs to the Talmud he claims is a book of lies to counter Jewish claims. This same person claims I hate christians when nothing could be further from the truth. The only hate oozing off these pages are from JX Amaro and whomever else tags along with him. I refuse to jump in the mud to play with pigs. See you on the high road, maybe, but doubtful.

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amoregrowers
amoregrowers: Judaic Death cult?

How about doing a thread entitled

On the Orgin & Foundation of Pedophilia in christianity. Well talk about the thousands of cases in the last 20 years

Or

On the Orgin & Foundation of Holy wars with a special emphasis on the Thirty Years war that decismated Prodistant and Catholics alike.

So lets dig in deep and see which religion is truely a "death cult"

I would bet you christianity wins.

Isnt there a verse about ...he who is without sin... get stoned...

All religions are full of humans who do horrible things. They do not make the whole of the religion..
(Edited by amoregrowers)
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: amore, you're twisting the conversation. JX is not talking about dissenters, or people of the religion that fail. the focus is the extra biblical writings or scriptures and traditions. no such nonsense that you brought up is in our scriptures, you made an unbalanced and twisted comparison. so you twisted and then you sidestepped. nothing more than a distraction.

as for dnc the proven charlatan, his comment is hypocritical as he's using his own insults, his threads are full of insults, and my threads would be full of his insults too if I didn't delete them all. his chat is also full of insults. personally I would pay no mind to him because what he says is obviously foolish and means nothing to him, obviously more distraction.

don't be distracted.

while I don't prefer to use insults and I can't defend them, I enjoy reading your posts JX.
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: I just love it when DNC makes a “highlight reel” of my winning phrases and zingers! LOL. But more seriously, it's beyond laughable for DNC – of all people – to now play the saint by rebuking others for engaging in insults and hate! ROFL. Any thread-reader knows DNC is given to hotheaded harangues and abusive behavior toward others. Obviously, DNC has a bad case of “projection issues.” It borders on being psychotic.

Then, of course, he plays the “anti-semite” card. This is totally laughable. I am a rational critic of Jewish Theology, nothing more. For verification of this, the thread-reader can simple go to the twelfth posting (and following) on the fifteenth page of the DNC thread entitled, “Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus.” There, the thread-reader will see my defense of Jews against anti-Jewish bigots – like DNC! (This assuming DNC doesn't take down the relevant posts.)

As per DNC's claim that he won't “crawl down into the sewer” to debate, I'll take that as a white flag of TOTAL, UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER! If he had points to make, he would make them. He doesn't, so he won't. Bang!

(Though not entirely relevant, I would also like to point out that I utterly annihilated DNC on Psalm 22 in the “NOT a Messianic Prophecy” thread (at the bottom of Page 1 currently). Sorry for being a tad immodest, but it's clear why he's avoiding engagement.)

As per ag's typically meandering and off-point musings, he can set up a thread on any topic he likes. However, it seems bizarre to me that he starts threads to attack Christians, then becomes a delicate flower complaining that I am engaged in “character assassination” of the some of the “holiest minds in history.” Presumably, he means the pseudo-sages of the Talmud and the Kabbalah gurus with their mystifying quackery. I can't imagine that he means the Rabbi Schneerson cult. Whatever.

Well, this has been fun.
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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: spot on
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

OK, now that you two have had time to gloat and give each other high fives, it's time to set the record straight regarding Daniel and prophecy in general. Neither of you have a clue what a prophet is or how prophecy works as you have demonstrated with your uneducated and misguided posts.

There are different degrees of prophecy. Not all degrees of prophecy qualify a person for the title "prophet."

One degree of prophecy is the divine inspiration that a person might receive encouraging him in some noble cause. This is called "ruach Elohim," "the spirit of G-d.” When it comes to people affected by this phenomenon, Scripture commonly uses such expressions as "the spirit of G-d rested on so-and-so," or “G-d was with so-and-so."

Another degree of prophecy is when a person is overcome by a feeling that moves him to words. He might compose songs of praise, discuss societal problems, or address his fellow men to improve their deeds. He does all these things while wide awake and fully aware. This is called "ruach hakodesh” (divine inspiration).

Such a person is said to speak by the ruach hakodesh. David composed the Psalms, and Solomon the Book of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon by this spirit; also Daniel, Job, Chronicles, and the rest of the Hagiographa were written via ruach hakodesh; therefore they are called ketubim (writings, or written), i.e., written by men inspired by the ruach hakodesh. NOT PROPHECY.

David, Solomon and Daniel belong in the category of people motivated by ruach hakodesh rather than among such full-fledged prophets as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. When David says, "The G-d of Israel spoke and said to me..." (II Samuel 23:3), he means that G-d sent him a message through a prophet. The same is true of Solomon in I Kings 11:11. However, when G-d spoke to Solomon in I Kings 3:5, it was not a prophecy at all, as verse 15 informs us that it was a dream.

Ecclesiastes, Daniel, Psalms, Ruth, and Esther; they are all written by divine inspiration. The authors of all these books are called prophets in the more general sense of the term.

There are several other levels of prophecy but I’ve touched upon the level Daniel is categorized so no need to go further. In actuality, prophets were those who were:
a. Given a prophesy by G-d
b. Commanded to reveal this prophesy to Bnei Yisrael.

Neither can be attributed to Daniel.

Also the Books of the Prophets were written in “the language of G-d.” Writings were written in the language of man.

The erroneous claim that Jews “defamed” Daniel or in other words DEMOTED is unfounded. His book was NEVER considered prophecy to begin with. There was no demotion or defaming. On the contrary, christians gave him a promotion because they claim he prophesied about jesus which is a whole other flawed issue. They also found it just fine and dandy to promote jesus from messiah to G-d Himself. Another topic for another thread.

Predictions of future events do not define a prophet. Prophecy has many different levels and intensities. The entire nation of Israel experienced prophecy during the Revelation at Mt. Sinai. Millions en masse. They did not predict future events. They had an extremely high awareness of G-d. Not the same thing as Isaiah predicting a cataclysmic future event.

So was Daniel a prophet? Possibly. But most say he didn’t quite make it through the threshold. And his book of writings are not considered prophecy. They never were. Regardless of what christians or muslims or any other faith or religion claims. They don’t decide. YOU don’t decide. Jews do.

Christianizing Hebrew scripture always backfires. It’s foolish and a waste of time. The Book of Daniel is not prophecy. Never was. It’s your problem that you can’t deal with it.

You think a calm and calculated response is surrender? You don’t know me well. You don’t know me at all.

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JX Amaro
JX Amaro: Oh look, DNC has crawled out of his troll-hole to respond! A couple points: 1) At least DNC gave us a content rich response, and not a raving and drooling harangue as is his usual style. I appreciate thoughtful responses. 2) In the third to last paragraph, DNC argues that only Jews get to decide who is a prophet. A) This is a blatant admission of abandoning reason for group-think dogma. B) It dovetails in an almost absurd, farce-like way with what I said about the Chabadniks in an above post. Let me quote myself: “In short, the sleazy Chabadniks are saying: ‘Daniel is a prophet, but he's not a prophet because we say so.’ Maybe that makes sense when you're stoned, I wouldn't know.” 3) As per the prophet status of Daniel, I would redirect the the thread-reader to my original post and the quotation from Josephus where Josephus – a Jew (not a disqualified from comment “Goy”) – states that Daniel is a prophet who exceeds the other prophets for reason of time-stamping his prophecies. And what does Daniel 9 do? Oh, it time-stamps the 40 Weeks prophecy to the (wait for it…) exact time of Jesus!!!

In short, DNC’s line – that is, the “party line” of Judaism – that Daniel’s book (to quote DNC) “was NEVER considered prophecy to begin with” is absurd disinformation. Daniel 9 is obviously prophecy and only Judaic propagandists and spin-doctors deny this self-evident truth.
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amoregrowers
amoregrowers:

Daniel, had the Ruach Hackodesh. Christianity calls this the "Holy Spirit"

There is a razor thin difference in Prophesy and Ruach Hackodesh. At times they are indistinguishable. This is a view of Judaism. However those on the inside they know the difference. The prophets of old that are typically quoted in New Testament learned prophesy. It was a learned highly disciplined skill. That was taught from teacher to student in what would be called schools of prophecy. Small Holy groups of men passing on the secrets of Holiness.

In christianity its Jesus, then Holy Spirit, then maybe Prophesy. It just happens like spontaneous hocus pocus. Or you might have other spiritual gifts.

Look G-d can work any way he wants. He is G-d of all humans.


The way scripture is approached and understood is inherently different. Why some things are the same. Most are not. This may be due to many reason. That is another huge conversation.

Christianity All roads lead to Jesus

Judaism All roads lead to a restored unified Israel. One G-d One people. Echad is the goal.

So christianity inherently tries to see Jesus in Jewish scripture.

Example:
Son of man
Son of G-d
Lord
LORD

Messianic figures in the OT were kings priest and prophets . It means anointed. These stories now assume a role as pointing to Jesus according to christianity.

Finding these similarities or parallels is paramout to christology. Christianity is constantly digging to find the identity of Jesus in Hebrew scriptures.

Jews are not.

Saying Jesus is all in the OT is like a Muslim telling you the NT is pointing to Mohammed . Its false and just does not make sense. It would take some serious twisting to accomplish that.

The apostles did not preach with the NT they would have used the OT. The apostle understanding of that would have been Jewish.

The NT is a Gentile Talmud. Its nothing new nor a Testament. Its a collection of passed down oral traditions that have been made authoritative.

Sure G-d renews. However it all should point to Torah and One G-d....not something different...

Wasn't that the message of Jesus...
So that you will KNOW my Father! What would that mean coming out of a Jews mouth?

So thats why Jews dont believe Daniel is talking about Jesus. It not a rabbinical ,post 2nd temple conspiracy, to undermine G-ds plan. It Jews preserving there beliefs against post second temple attacks against there beliefs and traditions.









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Apokalupto
Apokalupto: looks like he has no citations and ignored your post for the most part and just said it's wrong I'm right.

and here is amore again twisting and then sidestepping with his off topic comments. lol

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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

It's as if this JX Amalek (good one amore) didn't even read the post. So many mischaracterizations and misquotes.

Sorry but here is the cold, hard truth. Daniel was a Jew. His writings are Jewish. NOT christian. What christianity says about him, where they place his book in THEIR bible is inconsequential to us. YES, Jews know who their prophets are. Why is that an issue? Is that bothersome to you? Too bad.

What Josephus says or "sleazy Chabadniks" (there it is again) is irrelevant. The Tanach was canonized long before Josephus or Chabad were on the scene. And your fixation on Chabad is quite disturbing. They don't determine anything halachic. You're a Johnny-come-lately complaining we got it wrong. Do your homework more thoroughly.

Reread my post. I said it's possible that Daniel was a prophet but not on par with the major prophets like Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc. His writings are not considered prophecy. The Book of Daniel is not prophecy.

And the nonsense of Daniel's so-called prediction of jesus' coming has been debunked ad nauseum. Daniel writes of TWO anointed ones. One was Cyrus, the other is up for debate. Probably Agrippa. But whomever the second one was was evil and cut off. The timeline doesn't work. The math doesn't work. None of it fits unless you're content with jamming square pegs into round holes. Go for it.

Not sure what "citations" AA is looking for. You want specific passages that describe what a prophet is from the Tanach? They don't exist. How about you show me citations big shot?

You two should take your bromance elsewhere. You both have a jesus agenda and a compulsion to insert jesus into every paragraph of the Tanach. We've seen this for centuries. It's empty, old and tired.

3 years ago Report
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