Why Do the Rabbis Defame Daniel the Prophet? (Page 3)

amoregrowers: Speaking of Daniel. Why did the church accept 3 additional parts that the prodistant church does not?

Christians worried about the Tanakh yet can't agree on what scripture is in their own koine greek OT

LOL

DontNeedChrist:

"and I'm sure he can point to how an end of sins were made"

SIN STILL EXISTS. YOU EXPLAIN THAT ONE AWAY

"and reconciliation for iniquity was made"

RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN AVAILABLE, IT'S CALLED REPENTENCE (TESHUVAH)

"and everlasting righteousness being brought in"

YOUR jesus DID NONE OF THIS.

Apokalupto: Daniel 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

only Jesus can fulfill that. anyone else that attributes this to the characters you mentioned is lying to themselves and are obviously blind as a bat. dnc is most blind cuz he thinks it was Agrippa.

agrippa, most holy anointed one for sure.
and I'm sure he can point to how an end of sins were made
and reconciliation for iniquity was made
and everlasting righteousness being brought in

his Daniel 9 thread makes Daniel a liar. no surprise there.


it's obvious DNC does not Revere Daniel.

DontNeedChrist:

You keep repeating yourself. Your jesus did NONE of that. Address it and stop being a parrot.

Apokalupto:

if Jesus couldn't do it Aggripa couldn't do it either, and you know that, which goes to show the deception and lies youre willing to fall to in order to not see Jesus which goes back to my blind statement because you are definitely blind as a bat. YOU ARE MOST BLIND.

DontNeedChrist:

So you admit jesus failed to do it. I see quite clearly. Thank you for admitting that much.

Apokalupto: Edit: I've always believed that Jesus and only Jesus Christ fulfilled this because he's the only one who can. I have never admitted to the contrary and never will.

you just admitted to a bold-faced lie.

"and I'm sure he can point to how an end of sins were made"

SIN STILL EXISTS. YOU EXPLAIN THAT ONE AWAY

"and reconciliation for iniquity was made"

RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN AVAILABLE, IT'S CALLED REPENTENCE (TESHUVAH)

"and everlasting righteousness being brought in"

you just denied that the prophecy was fulfilled you're saying it is unfulfilled but you said it was probably Agrippa.

you just revealed your bold-faced lie as I was saying, it is exactly as I said exactly. should I say that one more time? was exactly right you are a bold-faced liar, and you are willing to use deception for your cause, you are blind as a bat hence why I couldn't care less about your thread which you obviously do not Revere Daniel's words. go ahead keep showing me how much you don't actually Revere Daniel's words.

DontNeedChrist:

Love how you ignore all my points and just keep calling me names. I prefer having conversations with adults.

Apokalupto: youd have to revere Daniel's words!
you'd have to be intellectually honest!
you'd have to act like an adult!

Apokalupto: like I said, keep proving how much you don't revere his words. you just did that again when you threw shade on Daniel 9:24.

DontNeedChrist:


"You don't revere Daniel. You don't revere Daniel. You don't revere Daniel.
You don't revere Daniel. You don't revere Daniel. You don't revere Daniel.


Wow, this complete absurdity. You've lost it. You admit your man/god didn't accomplish anything Daniel predicted. That's sums it up. Thank you.

DontNeedChrist:

BTW the second anointed one could have been Aggripa, could also have been Alexander Yannai but we can't be sure. But one thing we do know is this anointed one was evil and was "cut off" meaning he was removed from office, lost his power. Is that jesus? You tell me...but you won't because you're consumed with waving your hands and jumping up and down screaming I don't revere Daniel. So pathetic.

Apokalupto: my man God is most holy because he's the man God.
he made an end of sins on the cross, defeating death, his blood washes us from all sin past present and future.
he made reconciliation for sin by forgiving us of all sins and making us clean white as snow, and able to reconcile us to God the Father who we now have access to the holy of holies because we are clean.
everlasting righteousness was brought in by Jesus Christ who is our righteousness, who is everlasting, and whose righteousness is put on us like a robe that shall never be removed (his righteousness gives us everlasting life). and he has given us the promise of the inheritance of the holy Spirit, God's holy spirit, which is righteous.
the righteousness of the Gospel through the New Covenant has been revealed since the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and it's never going to go away.


Agrippa doesn't come close to any of these points, none of them on any level whatsoever. so what does that make you? either you're a deceptive liar and you don't believe that or you are blind as a bat and you believe that some Roman can achieve this. no, you do not revere his words and I will keep saying it because it is most obvious, you've proved that for us time and time again.

Apokalupto: no, you lied once again.

DontNeedChrist:

Same blather over and over. Conversation is done. You have nothing to contribute. Shalom eleicham.

Apokalupto: take a hike and take your most holy Agrippa with you!

DontNeedChrist:

You ran out of steam. You were reduced to running behind your pulpit and preaching the gospel. That's all you've got. No facts, no logic, no evidence. Just your irrational emotions that eventually take over because you know you painted yourself into a corner once again. This was so sad. Your house of cards collapsed.

JX Amaro:
@ag: I will give you credit! At least you took up the “Iddo Challenge”! Bravo! Yes, Iddo is briefly mentioned as a prophet though none of his works survive, at least as far as I know. I might be willing to give you a “Win” on this, too! My point was more rhetorical than literal, but I have to give credit where credit is due. Score one for ag!!!

As for the rest of ag's comment, I'm not persuaded that it refutes my thesis from the original 2 posts; but, of course, every thread-reader will have to decide that based on their own judgment.

On the XP/DNC battle, it's pretty obvious that DNC was TOTALLY crushed into the dirt. First: DNC totally misconstrues the 40 Weeks prophecy as being directed toward some type of Agrippa-like villain. Second: XP's analysis of verse 24 is absolutely correct, and that alone destroys DNC. “Only Jesus can fulfill that,” says XP in regard to making an end to sins. Entirely correct. (What? DNC thinks Agrippa or Alexander Yanni did that? If so, how?) Third: DNC says he reveres Daniel. How? He reveres Daniel by twisting to inversion Daniel's most important prophecy which time-stamps the coming of the messiah?! Fourth: DNC, as per usual, when defeated, is forced to engage in insults, and to pretend to have won before storming away like a petulant child. Really, it was funny to read. LOL

Note: On DNC's thread about Daniel 9 he engages in typical sleight of hand techniques to obfuscate the true destination date for the Messiah. The Start Date for calculating the 40 Weeks isn't the edict of Cyrus (as DNC states). That edict liberated the Jews and explicitly sent them back to build the temple. The Start Date is time-stamped to the order to REBUILD THE CITY (fact-check: Daniel 9:25). That order came from Artaxerxes I who sent Nehemiah back to Jerusalem with a commission to REBUILD THE CITY (fact-check: Nehemiah 2:5). DNC deceptively claims that the Cyrus Edict included an order to rebuild the city. (Fact-check: Post 4; “Now to the Math” paragraph; the sentence reads: “Cyrus gave an edict to the Jews to go back to Jerusalem in order to rebuild the city and the temple.”) Thread-readers can read 2 Chronicles 36:23 and Ezra 1:2 (and 1:5) to verify that there was NO order to REBUILD THE CITY from Cyrus. The Cyrus Edict was EXCLUSIVELY to “re-build the temple of YHWH” (1:5) – Full Stop. The Artaxerxes Commission is the royal authorization to REBUILD THE CITY. Nice try DNC, but your cheap charlatan tricks are exposed again.

As to the timing of the prophecy, this is tricky and will test your math skills. DNC says the Artaxerxes Commission is time-stamped to 445 bce. Let's go with that. Now the Messiah is said to arrive after 7 weeks and 62 weeks: that's 69 weeks. And 69 x 7 = 483 years. Now this is where it gets tricky, so pay attention.

One might think that 483 years after 445 bce takes you to 38 ce – a little too late for Jesus. But here's the trick: Daniel is thinking in terms of LUNAR years (the “biblical lunar calendar” as it is called), not solar years.

Get ready to do some math:
483 (69 weeks) x 360 (1 lunar year) = 173,880 (days)
173,880 (days) / 365.25 (1 solar year) = 476 (solar years)
476 years AFTER 445 bce (our start date) = the year 31 (or 32) ce.
Bingo! Right on time for Jesus!!!

Hallelujah!

Apokalupto: I'm sure anyone with an honest heart realizes the intellectual dishonesty from DNM's response to me. watch let me summarize it.

-He says "address it" (how Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled by Jesus)

-next is his twisted comment "So you admit jesus failed to do it. I see quite clearly. Thank you for admitting that much." no such admittance was made, but somehow "I see quite clearly" doesn't look like it to me, looks like whatever you're seeing is distorted and manipulated.

-then he says Agrippa, or some other dud fulfilled it, but neither come close to the description of Daniel 9:24 so he's obviously lying.

after I had to explain the embarrassing fact that Agrippa and that other dude don't make the cut I then "addressed it"

I addressed each point, how and why Jesus brought an end to sin, how and why he made reconciliation for sin, how and why everlasting righteousness was brought in, how and why he is the most holy anointed one basically saying he's God in the flesh.

but instead it was hand waved away and made a list of excuses and said my card castle fell. looool

I think the fact that Jesus Christ fits the Daniel 9:24 prophecy like a glove so well his knees buckled in comparison to his Agrippa dud.

DontNeedChrist:

What an ugly smear campaign. Let's take a look a few snippets of what Mr. Amalek claims:

"XP's analysis of verse 24 is absolutely correct, and that alone destroys DNC. “Only Jesus can fulfill that,” says XP in regard to making an end to sins. Entirely correct. (What? DNC thinks Agrippa or Alexander Yanni did that? If so, how?)"

An end to sin? Sin no longer exists? Really? Your jesus fulfilled that? Hmmmm. Oh yes, only if one believes. That's the loophole. All one has to do is look at the news to see what a fantasy that is. Sin is the worst it's ever been simply because there are more sinners on the earth than ever before in the history of man. Nice job jesus.

“The Start Date for calculating the 40 Weeks isn't the edict of Cyrus (as DNC states).”

Sorry pal, you are completely wrong on this one. Below is extensive proof it was the edict of Cyrus that got the ball rolling.

2 Chronicles 36:22 -23 
"And in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the L-rd in the mouth of Jeremiah, the L-rd aroused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying: "So said Cyrus the king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has the L-rd G-d of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who among you is of all His people, may the L-rd his G-d be with him, and he may ascend."

Ezra 1:1 - 2: 
"And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the L-rd from the mouth of Jeremiah, the L-rd aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the L-rd G-d of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea."

Did Daniel say 483 years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the Temple's destruction? Absolutely not. That is NOT what Daniel says.

Daniel 9:25.
"Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets, and fir sixty-two septets it will be rebuilt, street and moat but in troubled times." 

Not 483 years. Seven septets (shavuim) and sixty-two septets (shavuim). 

Daniel 9:26 says “after the sixty-two septets." Not sixty-nine (483 years).

Sixty-two.

The first seven are separated from the sixty-two both grammatically and in the text itself. Grammatically there is an etnach – like a semi-colon, a "stop" in Daniel 9:25  "Know and comprehend: From the emergence of the word to return and to build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince will be seven septets (שָׁבֻעִ֖ים / shavuim); (ETNACH / STOP) and for sixty-two septets (וְשָׁבֻעִ֞ים / v'shavuim) it will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times."

The 1611 King James had the semi-colon, but later versions ignored it. This ignoring of the grammar is still happening. The NASB translation has "there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks" -- ignoring the stop after seven weeks. Some have a comma -- but not a "stop" as a semi-colon or period would show. If Daniel wanted to say sixty-nine he would have said sixty-nine. Daniel specified seven septets (shavuim) and sixty-two septets (shavuim).

The word to rebuild Jerusalem was given by Cyrus, the ruler of Persia, in 537 BCE (3387 AC). This is mentioned in the Tanach several times:

2 Chronicles 36:22 -23 
"And in the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the L-rd in the mouth of Jeremiah, the L-rd aroused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying:  "So said Cyrus the king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has the L-rd G-d of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who among you is of all His people, may the L-rd his G-d be with him, and he may ascend."

We are told this again in Ezra 1:1 - 2: 
"And in the first year of Cyrus, the king of Persia, at the completion of the word of the L-rd from the mouth of Jeremiah, the L-rd aroused the Spirit of Cyrus, the king of Persia, and he issued a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also in writing, saying: So said Cyrus, the king of Persia, 'All the kingdoms of the earth the L-rd G-d of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea."

The Temple was destroyed in 68 CE. Since Cyrus gave the word to rebuild the Temple in 537 BCE this totals 605 years, NOT 483. NOT 483!

Since these numbers don't fit the missionary narrative they ignore Cyrus and choose a different starting point. They go with the decree by Artaxerxes to Nehemiah mentioned in Nehemiah 2:1-8. This would be 445/444 BCE (3479/3480 AC).

This date is incorrect -- but it is certainly closer in trying to "fit" the vision to jesus. The problem is that the dates still don't fit jesus.

445 BCE as a starting point + 68 CE (the date of the Temple's destruction) equals 513 years -- NOT THE 483 YEARS JX AMALEK CLAIMS! Your fuzzy math has been called out!

Add 483 to 444 (BCE) and you arrive at 37 CE. If jesus is born in the year "zero" he would have been 37 -- but he died at age 33. The dates don't work for jesus even if you "pick" the latest possible starting date for 483 years. . .the claim that the dates fit jesus are flat out wrong. 

How do we know that the starting point is Cyrus and NOT Artaxerxes? Isaiah tells us.

Isaiah 44:28.
"Who says of Cyrus, "He is My shepherd, and all My desire he shall fulfill," and to say of Jerusalem, "It shall be built, and the Temple shall be founded." 

Isaiah 45:1. 
"So said HaShem to His messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I held, to flatten nations before him, and the loins of kings I will loosen, to open portals before him, and gates shall not be closed."

G-d's messiah, Cyrus, (the first messiah mentioned in Daniel 9, will give the word "to say of Jerusalem, "It shall be built, and the Temple shall be founded." 

In verse Isaiah 44:28. Cyrus is clearly referenced as the person who is to deliver the edict to rebuild Jerusalem AND the Temple. Also, in Isaiah 45:1 Cyrus is clearly called G-d's anointed (Messiah).

Josephus, the first century historian, wrote: 
"In the first year of the reign of Cyrus which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, G-d commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity. And these things G-d did afford them; for he stirred up the mind of Cyrus, and made him write this throughout all Asia: "Thus said Cyrus the king: Since G-d Almighty has appointed me to be king of the habitable earth, I believe that he is that G-d which the nation of the Israelites worship; for indeed he foretold my name by the prophets, and that I should build him a house at Jerusalem, in the country of Judea."

2000 years ago we knew the starting point was CYRUS.

Cyrus' edict - by secular accounts - was issued in 537 BCE, exactly 7 weeks (or 49 years) after Babylon's sack of Jerusalem. It's a perfect fit for Daniel 9. However, 62 or 63 weeks (or 414-421 years) after Cyrus puts us into the years 116-123 BCE, about 150 years before jesus. Ooooops.

You ignore Isaiah. You ignore Josephus. You can't accept Cyrus as the starting point even though it is IN the Tanach. It is just WAY too early to fit jesus hence it must be ignored.

Daniel was sitting in exile -- and he was wondering when that exile would end.

The vision he was given told him when the word to rebuild the Temple would be given (heralding the end of the exile) -- but warning if the Jews did not "terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to anoint the Holy of Holies" there would be an evil messiah who would bookend a second, much longer, exile. And that is exactly what happened hence there is no end to sin.

That second messiah would be "יִכָּרֵ֥ת / yikkarét / he will be cut off and will exist no longer;" The Hebrew here is כרת‎ -- kareit and it is a spiritual punishment because it is carried out by G-d -- an excommunication of the soul. . . This word is not used to speak of human's killing another human (as in execution). A few messiahs of 2000 years ago could fit this description. Some say it was Agrippa or the high priest (kohen gadol) Alexander Yannai -- both of whom lost their positions in the time frame in question. But here is the thing -- and the very reason christians should never, ever want to associate Daniel 9 with jesus. . .

Whatever iteration of the word כָּרַת - kareit or words created from it - only used to speak of the demise (whether by death or excommunication) of EVIL people.

EVIL PEOPLE are כָּרַת - kareit. So we know the TWO messiahs Daniel is writing about is Cyrus and the other is evil. Any christian associating this term with jesus are ipso facto stating that jesus was evil. Ooooops.

In any case the claim that jesus "fulfilled" a non-existent vision relating to 483 years let alone "to the exact day" is false.

Both tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber will vehemently negate the FACTS I have presented as lies, call me a charlatan, a deceiver and whatever other vile words they can contrive. I don’t care, the facts speak for themself.

Apokalupto: smear campaign? your actions fall back on you. you're proven charlatan and a manipulator. from now on this is what you're known as, this is your reputation that you have created all on your own.

as for your explanation of verse 24 it is manipulated again. and I'll let you know right now I'm not going to play your fake Hebrew game when you were just exposed for being a fraud: Topic: Religion

anyone else who's going to go along with DNMs original Hebrew is playing a foolish game. foolish foolish indeed.

now, as I said before, you have manipulated verse 24.

DNM-"The vision he was given told him when the word to rebuild the Temple would be given (heralding the end of the exile) -- but warning if.."

hold it right there pal, you're adding to the scripture, there is no "if" statement here and there is no warning here either. you're adding that to manipulate your Jewish propaganda into the text. what follows after that is nothing more than a manipulation and it is false.


"....but warning if the Jews did not "terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to anoint the Holy of Holies" there would be an evil messiah who would bookend a second, much longer, exile. And that is exactly what happened hence there is no end to sin."

the manipulation of the text is astounding. it doesn't say that there would be any consequences, this is a straightforward prophecy that this is going to happen there is no conditional statement, there is no "if this then that, if not that, then not this." your whole explanation of verse 24 is debunked.

secondly, your half right about an evil person at least in this passage, but that person doesn't appear until verse 26 where it says: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined....

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that week is 7 years approximately, we're talking about the sacrifice ending, when was that? the only most notable point in history around this time is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. the Jewish revolt began a little into 66 ad, approximately in the midst of the week "70 AD" the temple was destroyed and the daily sacrifice ended, then in 73 ad Jerusalem fell. that week was finished. they were destroyed because they did not believe on Jesus who took the sin of the world onto himself and became the punishment on our behalf, because he became sin for us.

https://www.livius.org/articles/concept/roman-jewish-wars/roman-jewish-wars-5/

exactly 7 years is 2,555 days, and I realized that this is not exactly 2,555 days, it's an approximation, the timeline is defined by Daniel when he says that the sacrifice will cease.

DontNeedChrist:

Since JX Amalek loves Rashi, I invite him to read his commentary on Daniel 9. What does Rashi say? The anointed one is CYRUS. The one cut off is Agrippa. So JX Amalek will only agree with Rashi and run to his commentaries when they seem to support his christian argument but will most likely naysay his Daniel commentary. How convenient. Can't have it both ways boys. I make nothing up. See for yourself:

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16492/showrashi/true

amoregrowers: Also

JX a lunar year is not 360 days.

A lunar year is roughly 354 days.

The 360 day year is called a prophetic or apocalyptic year which we see with Noah Abraham Daniel and again in revelations.

Also your not incorporating leap months to realigned to solar year.

So poetically it might make sense but as far as exact scientifically to the second. No!

I give you a high score for creativity.

DontNeedChrist:

I covered the calendar aspects in my previous post but he ignored it.

Apokalupto: that's not my statement, I made no argument stating when or how the dates fit until now, the other stuff is JXs conversation with you.

in the meantime you have something else to deal with.

and I'll add one more thing just to make it clear.

you cannot defeat Jesus, nobody can you can only deny him but you cannot defeat him. "my God my God.... why hast thou.....

forsaken me."-Jesus on the cross when it took on sin and became sin for us and was punished on our behalf.