Daniel 9 is not about jesus

DontNeedChrist:

Christians are quite fond of Daniel 9. They claim Daniel predicted the coming of jesus. The following is a detailed rebuttal citing various scriptural evidence that proves the claims are false and forced.

Daniel 9 actually speaks of TWO messiahs. Messiah means "anointed one." There have been countless messiah's in Jewish history. Daniel issued a warning to the Jews who had been in exile in Babylon that there will be a messiah, namely the foreign king Cyrus, (who was actually called "G-d's messiah" in the Jewish bible) gives the decree to "go forth" and rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. From the time this happens the Jews will have a period of time to repent of the sins that caused the Babylonian exile and become good, observant Jews. If they do that then the second messiah will never come. If the Jews fail to follow the decree, then destruction will happen, a second messiah will come and this will be the signal that there will soon be another -- much longer -- exile for the Jews.

DontNeedChrist:

Daniel 9:25 – "And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times." Daniel 9:26 – "And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation." When did this decree “go forth?" It happened WAY too early to fit jesus. It was 538 BCE when King Cyrus (Ezra in 1:1-4 and Ezra 5:13-17) gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Then in 517 BCE Darius gave another decree to rebuild the Temple (recorded in Ezra 6:6-12). All of these dates are WAY too early for the 70 weeks to fit the jesus idea, so christians pick a much later date. They pick Artaxerxes' decree in 445 BCE (Nehemiah 2:5-7). 483 years from the year 445 BCE would put us at 37 CE which (per christians) is still wrong to fit jesus. Alexander Yannai came to power just at the end of the real sixty-two week period in 103 BCE and was the last of the important Hasmonean leaders. Yannai was known as a violent and bloody ruler. In one Temple revolt over 6000 people were killed due to his direct actions so the second "anointed one" Daniel was speaking of was most likely Yannai who lost the throne at the age of 59.

483 years from the year 445 BCE would put us at 37 CE which (per christians) is still wrong to fit jesus.

"Cut off" doesn't mean the messiah will die. It can also mean SPIRITUALLY cut off because the person was evil and deserved to be cut off spiritually. In the Torah it is always used to describe the punishment of the Divine Court, in contrast to a punishment of a human court.

Did Daniel prophesied when the Mochiach would be killed? Absolutely not.

DontNeedChrist:

The Hebrew translation of the Aramaic text used by Daniel is the word yekares, (ואין לו) which literally means "and he has nothing." Cut off does not refer to the death of anyone, but of his removal from a position. More like a Divine "You're Fired." Jesus, never had any position that he lost, so it cannot be him. It does, however, support the Jewish view that either Yannai, or the High Priest lost their jobs in Judea at that time.

Daniel was NOT speaking of THE Messiah that we still await and his prophecy that the an anointed one would be "cut off" merely meant he would be removed from power. Not killed.

Daniel predicts the coming of A messiah. Not THEE Messiah ben David that we still await. Messiah means "anointed one." The word "messiah" is NEVER used anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. There have literally been thousands of anointed ones throughout Jewish history. David himself was anointed, his son Solomon was anointed, etc. Daniel's predictions already came true with Cyrus as the first anointed one and (possibly) Yannai as the second anointed one.

In Daniel 9:26 an angel is describing to Daniel future events regarding the building of the Temple in Jerusalem. In 9:25 the prince is the anointed one, Cyrus, who rebuilt the Second Temple and in 9:26 the last Jewish anointed king, Aggripa, was "cut off" by the prince in that verse, Titus, who destroyed the second Temple.

In verse 25, it states: "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the WORD to restore and rebuild Jerusalem."

SO WHAT WORD? The WORD of Jeremiah is given just before the destruction of the Temple. Daniel's visions are tied to the prophet Jeremiah.

We must go back into the Tanakh to find see evidence of this: Jeremiah 29:10 — "For thus saith Hashem: After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform My good WORD toward you, in causing you to return to this place."

Ezra 1:1 — "And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of HaShem by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, Hashem stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he issued a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing."

So it's Cyrus who fulfills the WORD of Jeremiah; it is not Cyrus who makes it. The calculation was to start BEFORE Daniel's time in Babylon, not afterward. If it starts afterward at some unspecified point, then it is impossible for Daniel to understand.

DontNeedChrist:

Now we can go back to Daniel to see how this consistency is reinforced.
Daniel 9:2 — "In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the WORD of Hashem had come to the prophet Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since the destruction of Jerusalem."

And now 2nd Chronicles 36:21-23 sums it up: To fulfill the WORD of Hashem by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths; for as long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, so that the WORD of HaShem spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Hashem stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying: Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth has HaShem G-d of heaven given me; and he has charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, HaShem his G-d be with him, and let him go up!

The word was from G-d through "the mouth of Jeremiah" and Cyrus issued the decree: Isaiah 44:28 — "Who says of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure; and saying to Jerusalem, You shall be rebuilt; AND to the temple, Your foundation shall be laid."
So Cyrus will rebuild BOTH Jerusalem AND the Temple. Not Artaxerxes (although he is a much more convenient starting point for christian math).

NOW TO THE MATH: It's irrefutable proof that Cyrus, being G-d's anointed Messiah, is at least ONE of the messiahs that Daniel is speaking of. Cyrus gave an edict for Jews to go back to Jerusalem in order to rebuild the city and the Temple. Cyrus' edict - by secular accounts - was issued in 537 BCE, exactly 7 weeks (or 49 years) after Babylon's sack of Jerusalem. Cyrus is a perfect fit. However, 62 or 63 weeks (or 414-421 years) after Cyrus puts us into the years 116-123 BCE, about 150 years before jesus.


The calendar we use wasn't used in Daniel's time. The Hebrew calendar prior to Hillel II was based on sightings of the moon. Also the Julian, Georgian and other calendars also changed over time. In the Hebrew calendar an ordinary Jewish year can have 353, 354, or 355 days. Then there is the issue of a leap year. An ordinary year has 12 months, a leap year has 13 months. A complete "cycle" on the Jewish calendar takes 19 years, and it involves the intercallation of a 13th month, the month of Adar, several times during this "cycle", i.e., a "leap month" is added to a Jewish leap year a number of times during this 19-year period. The discrepancy between the number of days in a lunar year and a solar year adds up to 207 days every nineteen years, the Adar "leap month" is added to the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th year of every 19-year "cycle." If one is doing these calculations according to the Julian or Georgian calendar and adhere to 365 days, one will never be able to trace the time frame accurately.

TO SUMMARIZE:
• The math is off because it starts from the wrong time period
• The wrong calendar is used
• jesus was never an anointed king of any country so he could not be removed from such a position
• None of the outcomes that Daniel writes about have ever come to be:
a) to finish transgression – transgression still exists b) to make an end to sin – sin still exists c) to bring everlasting righteousness mistranslation – the word is more accurately translated as JUSTICE. Everlasting justice does not exist.
d) to seal both vision and prophet – when did this happen? e) to anoint the most holy place – when did this happen?


jesus didn't fulfill any of these. He was neither of the "anointed ones" Daniel spoke of.

DontNeedChrist:

The link below is from a CHRISTIAN website. They are a baptist congregation from South Carolina not that it matters what denomination they are. They are admitted christians and they have posted their view on the Cyrus edict of Daniel 9. Don't take my word for it, read it yourself.

https://letgodbetrue.com/bible-topics/index/prophecy/cyrus-decree-to-rebuild/

Even fellow christians admit it was the edict of Cyrus that started the timeline of Daniel's predictions so it's not just the Jewish view. Happy reading.

JX Amaro: OK, I read it. Here is the KEY paragraph in a long and somewhat tiresome essay:
“The Problem: So we can easily see that the weight of the biblical evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Cyrus being the king who fulfilled Daniel 9:25 by giving the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem in his first year. But if the biblical evidence is so strongly in favor of Cyrus, WHY DO ALMOST ALL MODERN BIBLE TEACHERS AND CHRONOLOGERS CHOOSE ARTAXERXES AS THE KING WHO GAVE THE COMMAND TO REBUILD JERUSALEM IN THE 20TH YEAR OF HIS REIGN?” [Caps for emphasis are mine.]

In short DNC has presented independent evidence that corroborates THE FACT that – let me quote – “almost all” the scholars agree with MY position. And yeah, DNC found some obscure and idiosyncratic outlier that agrees with his position. So what? It just proves my point. To say it again: The VAST MAJORITY of scholarly opinion is on MY SIDE.

Thanks for justifying the scholarly legitimacy of my position with your source.

DontNeedChrist:

Not surprised with this response. You missed the point anyway. Your POV is not unanimous even among your brethren. Not going to be in a pissing match about this any longer. If I claimed the sky was blue you would argue that to the bitter end.

The edict was from Cyrus. You’re free to disagree but that does not make me a liar or a charlatan or whatever the word of the week is. Get over yourselves.

DontNeedChrist:

I will also add that your “key” paragraph is cherry picked from the entire essay and you conveniently leave out the conclusions that result:

“Who will we believe? Will we believe the Hebrew prophets directed by the G-d of heaven or will we believe the heathen astrologer from Alexandria, Egypt? Will we accept what the Bible clearly states regarding Cyrus, or will we reject the biblical account in favor of the unsubstantiated chronology of Ptolemy that differs materially from the biblical record?”

“But if the biblical evidence is so strongly in favor of Cyrus, why do almost all modern Bible teachers and chronologers choose Artaxerxes as the king who gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of his reign?”

Here’s your answer. Because Artaxerxes works better for the jesus agenda. That is the sole reason. If you go with Cyrus then your argument falls apart. Can’t have that. Nope. Follow the crowd even though they are easily proven wrong. The end justifies the means. You claim I make your point for you but the tables are turned, you’re just too absorbed with winning for jesus to consider basic facts and basic math. Done with this. Cyrus it is.

poetry123:


Josephus- Antiquities of the Jews- book xi chapter 1
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-11.html

King Cyrus to Sisinnes, and Sathrabuzanes, sendeth Greeting.

I have given leave to as many of the Jews that dwell in my country as please, to return to their own country, and to rebuild their city, and to build the temple of G-d at Jerusalem, on the same place where it was before. 

Josephus the historian- the epistle written by Cyrus to Sisinnes and Sathrabuzanes- the governors of Syria.


Note: Specifically says- to rebuild their city (Jerusalem) as distinct from the Temple at Jerusalem.

JX Amaro: @DNC: Is this a joke? YOUR source clearly states “ALMOST ALL” scholarship accords with MY POSITION, and now you demand absolute unanimity? Please... Grow up.

@ Poetry123: At least your response contains some interesting content. I will spare you a lecture on “textual criticism” and only note that Josephus is quoting from a source – he isn’t speaking in his own voice. Big Difference. I can quote Castro saying he had Kennedy shot, and I can quote people who think persons A-Z shot Kennedy. Quoting a source isn't the same as verifying a claim.

The title of this thread is “Daniel 9 is not about Jesus.” In my own thread about Daniel I have cited a source working out the math, and I have offered my own math using a “Start Date” prompted by DNC himself. Even Sir Isaac Newton worked it out, and I assume Sir Isaac outranks you or I in terms of math skills. In short, there are many ways to make Daniel 9 fit with Christianity. Mad Rambam knew that damn well. That’s why it’s forbidden information in Judaism.

Last point: Your false rabbis lie to you. Only the Christian revelation can make plausible sense of Daniel 9. If Jesus isn’t the Christ, then the religion of Abraham, Moses and David is as dead as the religion of Zeus, Jupiter and Osiris. Take your pick: Jesus or Nothing.

poetry123:

Nu- I only showed Josephus because you brought him up in the other thread.

Of course he is quoting from a source-- from the letter written by King Cyrus. In his own words would have been an opinion.

I was presenting a source- not an opinion.

There are more than enough opinions going on in this conversation-- why introduce a new one?

Take away from it what you will- or nothing at all.

poetry123:

Sorry DNC- it's a bit off topic...

In regards to the 'curse'- what is it all about?

Let's look at the source- What Rabbi Yonaton- not Rambam- is saying is- when you make predictions and there are errors- it could cause people to lose faith- to go astray- off the derech.  Either they would give up on the idea of moshiach or Judaism or chas v'shalom to lose faith in Hashem.

This actually happened in the 17th century with Shabbatai Tzvi.  He claimed himself to be moshiach- he had a huge following-- and he ended up being forced to convert to Islam under threat of death.  Many Jews also converted.

The curse is not about speculating when moshiach will come- that has always been done and continues to be done- rather it's about making public predictions- announcing a specific date with some kind of authority- about getting people's hopes up at a time when hope was in short supply-- and the date comes and goes and people are crushed.

So back to Shabbatai Tzvi- they see a guy who seems to fulfill some of the qualities of moshiach.  It was a time when Jews were horribly persecuted all across Europe.  The rabbis never accepted him- they knew he was a fraud- but people wouldn't listen.

Hundreds of years later- Shabbatai Tzvi still affects the Jewish community.  The fact that he refused his Jewish faith and caused others to convert is a chilul Hashem.  

Historically when things were bad for Jews- we would say- wait for moshiach to come- then we will be able to live as Jews.

There's a parallel to when times were most bad and the heightened interest and desire for moshiach.  When things are going good- our focus is elsewhere.  As a result- you have people that claim to be moshiach and they have a following because people are desperate.

Now- we have different types of false moshiachs.  We have those who are total frauds and then we have potential moshiachs that don't work out either because they had character flaws or because the Jewish community wasn't righteous enough to merit moshiach.

We have a tradition that in every generation is a potential moshiach- we believe he could come any day.  So if it could happen at any time- there always has to be a man that can fill those shoes.

DontNeedChrist:

"JX Amaro: @DNC: Is this a joke? YOUR source clearly states “ALMOST ALL” scholarship accords with MY POSITION, and now you demand absolute unanimity? Please... Grow up."

Where do I demand unanimity? Show me. I stated the FACT that your viewpoint is not shared even with your own christian compadres. You seem prone to missing the points. Read my post again. Why do "almost all" so-called scholars and chronologers go against BIBLICAL EVIDENCE and choose Artaxerxes? Because Cyrus renders jesus moot in Daniel's predictions. You want to agree with the crowd that goes against BIBLICAL EVIDENCE? Go right ahead. But you ought to be consistent and ALWAYS go against biblical evidence. Seem like a wise choice? It's your circus.

BTW, Daniel predicts TWO anointed ones. Cyrus is one as Isaiah and other prophets validate and the other is A messiah....not THEEE messiah. Translated from Daniel's Aramaic the word "the" is pronounced "ha." It means "A" messiah. What is a messiah? A person who is anointed with Moses' handmade, specific oil formula by a prophet, king or priest. There is no documentation anywhere in the NT or any other source that shows jesus was properly anointed with Moses' oil. The NT claims G-d shouted he was anointed from the heavens but no oil. Sorry that's unprovable and forced and goes against Torah protocol. Another scenario is some woman cleaned his feet with spikenard. Spikenard is not anointing oil and the oil is to be applied to the head not the feet.

So here we have the argument that jesus was one of the anointed ones that Daniel is predicting but jesus was never even properly anointed. Missed that part I guess. The big picture shows a different vantage point. Don't forget the big picture. Not sure why I continue to entertain this nonsense.

As the title of this thread proclaims:
DANIEL 9 IS NOT ABOUT JESUS. It's been proven.

JX Amaro:
@Poetry123: On Josephus and the Source: You might, sort of, have a point. It was early in the morning and my point, perhaps, wasn't crystal clear. Josephus is quoting from what alleges to be a letter from Cyrus. “Textual Criticism” would ask a thousand withering questions about that – the provenance of the letter, the legitimacy of the letter etc. But it hardly matters. Daniel 9:25 states that the math issues derive from the order for the city to be rebuilt. For the purposes of calculating the end point, the Artaxerxes Order can be used and furnishes a “Start Date” that meets the qualifications of Daniel – regardless of the Cyrus Edict. The Christian interpretation, therefor, stands on firm ground and need offer no apologies.

I will also note, however uncharitably, that your dilation on Jewish false Messiahs (Zevi etc) curiously underscored the last point I made in my above comment. How odd that you would call attention to the essential flaw in Judaism, the laughable parade of absurdist pseudo-Messiahs. It almost seems like you are trying to make the Christian argument for us. (You might want to review what I said in comment to DNC's “Tiger Woods” thread, assuming it hasn't been taken down).

(Pedantic point: The curse comes from the Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, which is then restated by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, chapter 12 of Hilchos Melachim.)

@DNC (point-by-point): (1) You want me to show you where you demand “unanimity”? OK. Go to the third sentence of your first posting following mine. Wait! I'll spare you the bother by quoting it: “Your POV is not unanimous even among your own brethren.” So you found one outlier in the ocean of the internet. Who cares. “Almost all” scholars – to use YOUR SOURCE – accords with MY VIEW. Bingo!

(2) How am I going against scripture when: A) Daniel 9:25 states the Start Date as the order to rebuild Jerusalem; and B) Nehemiah 2:4-8 shows Artaxerxes granting Nehemiah's request to rebuild Jerusalem? This is a match beyond rational objection. The Christian view has the full authority of scripture. Bingo!

(3) Here DNC really jumps the shark and begins raving. He first raves on about “a” messiah, not “theeee” Messiah. Apparently he thinks messiahs are as common and easy to come by as fast food joints in suburbia. Oh, where to begin? Well, maybe we begin with one of your most cited “sages” or whatever – the ubiquitous Rambam. He spends a fair amount of time going on about THE “King Messiah” (not “a” king messiah). Bingo!

(4) Then DNC pedantically raves on about a proper anointing. If anyone is actually interested, here is a link that addresses the issue from a Christian perspective:
https://www.psalm11918.org/Articles/Answering-Jewish-Objections/Jesus-Was-Never-Properly-Anointed.html

(5) I'm not sure why DNC continues to entertain his own nonsense, either. LOL

(6) DNC finishes by boasting that he has proved Jesus is not the Messiah – apparently on the grounds that Jesus was not anointed by Moses' home-brewed anointing oil (hey, do they sell that on Amazon?). And apparently he's smarter than Sir Isaac Newton, among others. Wow. Who knew? (I'm beginning to think this really is some type of weird “theater of the absurd” joke. Seriously.)

So, another total catastrophe for DNC. The KEY TAKEAWAY here is this: DNC is at least admitting that Daniel is predicting the coming of “a” messiah – therefor it's a Messianic Prophecy. OK, so if it doesn't point to Jesus, then who? Oh yeah, according to the all-wise DNC, it points to Agrippa (!), or (wait for it...) some obscure yo-yo named Yannai! Someone call the undertaker, we got a real dead one here.

DontNeedChrist:

Such immaturity. Nothing but sarcasm, name calling and false claims. Seriously not worth addressing. But I do have one point:

Note, that there are 27 books in the Greek new testament, and NONE of them quote Daniel 9 in regards to a messiah being killed. There are passages that refer to the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple but not the death of any anointed one.

Not any of the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Not in the letters of Paul. Not in the letters of Peter.

Apparently, no one in first century christianity thought that it was important enough to mention an alleged prophecy about the exact year their so-called messiah was going to be killed. This implies, that even in the early years of POST jesus, Daniel 9 was still not interpreted as being about jesus.

JX Amaro: As a courtesy, I won’t go on about DNC’s above evasions and deflections. Rather, I will simply deal with DNC’s “talking point” that the New Testament does not recognize Jesus as the object of Daniel’s Messianic Prophecy.

First, It is implicit that the “plot” of the Gospel Story is to tell of the coming of the Messiah. Thus, observe Luke 24:7: “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he (Jesus) explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.”

Second, there is the frequent use of the phrase “Son of Man” in the Gospels. This is an important KEY PHRASE. And ONLY in Daniel is the phrase “Son of Man” used in Aramaic. Let me quote from an excellent and insightful study (which includes a thorough study of the words in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek):

“(E)very time Jesus used Son of Man, the Gospels included the definite article ‘the’ which made the phrase a distinct title. Jesus was not just ‘a’ Son of Man; He was ‘the’ Son of Man. While the Gospels were written in Greek, they were written in such a way to emphasize the Aramaic Jesus used, and the Aramaic phrase is only found one place in the Old Testament—Daniel 7.”
source: https://samuelwhitefield.com/resource/why-son-of-man-in-the-gospels-was-a-unique-reference-to-daniel-7

Thus, while Jesus does not pull out an abacus and work out the math, Jesus is OBVIOUSLY speaking in coded language that points to Daniel to make clear that THE TIME of the fulfillment has come.

Ergo, DNC’s anti-Christian talking point is destroyed.