Jewish captivity atonement

HydroMan
HydroMan: does anyone know how the Jews made atonement when they were exiled in Babylon? As far as I know, they had no place to make sacrifices
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

Prayer and repentance replace sacrificial offerings until the Temple is rebuilt when the true Messiah comes.

Hosea 3:4
“For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim.”

Hosea 14:3
"Take with you words, and return unto the Lord; say unto Him: ‘Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.’"

Return to the Lord means repentance. Bullocks means animal sacrifice. Offering of lips means prayer.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: How strange, that instead of animal sacrifice, they would pray.
To think that an apology and prayer is a sacrifice!!

I guess it sounds good if you didn't have to make any contributions to the Faith, like money, labour, teaching, organizing celebrations, alms to the poor, your life etc.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: From Wikipedia, re: sacrifice in Judaism:

"A sacrifice (short for sacrifice of well-being) was partly burnt and most of it eaten in communion at a sacrificial meal. During the First Temple and Second Temple periods, the burnt offering was a twice-daily animal sacrifice offered on the altar in the temple in Jerusalem that was completely consumed by fire."

The problem was that they ritually BURNT it, and used that as a scapegoat for their sins. I think that's akin to the Catholic clergy's sale of indulgences before Luther came along. Many don't realize this is exactly what the Pagans were doing.

Compare to animal sacrifice in Islam. On specific days, they'd humanely slaughter an animal from their OWN domestic livestock then divide up the meat and give it to neighbours and the poor to eat. Nothing was wasted. There's no record of Muslims having abused this because it was viewed only as charitable act.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Hydroman, that the Jews in Babylon were slaves was sacrifice enough.
They'd willingly gone into their fate and didn't run away from it, albeit some of the tribes were lost during this period. It was a strong test - those who patiently endured came out a better people.
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DontNeedChrist
DontNeedChrist:

“I guess it sounds good if you didn't have to make any contributions to the Faith, like money, labour, teaching, organizing celebrations, alms to the poor, your life etc.”

As if we don’t do any of that now without a Temple? We do that and more. G-d chooses where the korbon are offered, not humans. He chose the Temple. Since it’s temporarily unavailable, the Prophet Hosea eloquently prophesied what will suffice in the meantime.

We don’t do backyard BBQs on a whim.

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Zanjan
Zanjan: Does it make sense to think that if you do all of these things now, you don't need a Temple?

Personally, I'm remembering the profound sacrifice the Jews made during the Holocaust - not just for their kindred, but for you and me and ALL of humanity. No atonement could have been greater. We can all see that it wasn't in vain because God responded with a huge gift to their people.

Seems to me if you'd have a new Temple, you'll likely be using it for something new, at least something extra.

It might even be possible that God would permit you to build the new Temple on a different mountain in Israel; and, given the world Jewish population, additional Temple structures on other continents. As long as you've got the funds, I can't imagine who would object.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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poetry123
poetry123:

Zanjan said:
Personally, I'm remembering the profound sacrifice the Jews made during the Holocaust - not just for their kindred, but for you and me and ALL of humanity. No atonement could have been greater. We can all see that it wasn't in vain because God responded with a huge gift to their people.
___________________

The Shoah was not a sacrifice and was not atonement- not for the murdered- and certainly not for all of humanity.

It was mass murder.  By calling it anything else you are excusing the horrific crimes of the nazis.

The very idea that millions of lives were given as an offering for any reason and the acceptance by hashem of such an offering is disgusting.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: In English, it was genocide. Stalin and Mao killed millions too; however, I'm not looking at it through political or secular eyes.

I'm very familiar with the Holocaust stories. Many could have escaped; some did, others didn't, some chose not to - that's what I was getting at. Some were murdered only because of their bloodline while others because they refused to deny they were Jewish.

Anyone who is murdered for their Faith is called a Martyr and there were some of those too. Martyrs are NOT victims; they choose love, not fear. Try to recognize that.

Let's not get caught up in semantics and play on angry or resentful emotions! That doesn't help anyone. Whatever the situation, believers need to be grateful to God. Therein lies understanding and trust. God compensates all those who've suffered in His path.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Poetry, well said.
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JX Amaro
JX Amaro:
Interestingly enough, that Jesus guy foresaw the end of the temple and prepared a new way for sacrifice and atonement. However, we are told Jesus isn’t the true Messiah. OK. Whatever. So, by default, we can all excitedly await the coming of the Judaic “Mozhiakh” who will rebuild the temple and restore the old sacrifices – the holocausts of pigs, turtle-doves and whatever else. Yes, and in that way the Jewish people will once again be a “light onto the nations.” (!)

Does anyone else see at least a couple problems here?

Of course, I will be attacked and vilified for being an “anti-semite” for merely attempting to fight ignorance, and moral barbarism (ie, apostate Judaism) and attempting to lead imprisoned Jews out of the spiritual death camps of their perverted rabbis. Que sera, sera (and gimme shelter!!!).

Boxscore: The Messiah already came. Judaic War is a shot away. Christian Love is a kiss away. Take your choice.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: There's no way the Messiah will restore Judaism - too old, too splintered; or Christianity either for the same reasons. It will be a new religion, one fit for modern times and the general modern intellect, which isn't based on a kiss but on justice.

There's no shame in adding a new chapter to history because we don't erase the old ones when we do it.

I don't really think Jews want or need a king for the country of Israel anymore - peace, yes. We all want that and it's not even our country. I pray they will find their way to an undivided country.
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: LOL There is no way the Messiah will restore Judaism.

The ignorance is flowing like a clogged toilet being flushed. This is shows the idiotic assumption of the purpose of the Messiah for Jews, Judaism is our religious identity and way of life, only an outsider that is ignorant about the richness, depth, and enlightenment we possess in our Judaic writings will assume the Messiah will restore Judaism when there is nothing to restore about in Judaism as a religion, but rather the Messiah is a force of unification for the Jews.

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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Zanjan has an issue, this woman has the delusional expectations, like many other religions and religious that come after Judaism, expect Jews and Judaism have to incorporate to the new version of Abrahamic G-d.

Nope, Judaism is autonomous and independent from the other Abrahamic religions; we are NOT part of Christianity, but Christianity is part of us; we are NOT part of Islam, but Islam is part of us; we are NOT part of Baha'i, but Baha'i is part of us.
Part of us became the above mentioned religions use Judaic writings as a source of knowledge. Those religious and religions have cemented their religious version of Abraham's G-d from Judaic writings that are pertaining to Jews and Judaism.

To each their own.

I noticed the Baha'i character that goes in Religion forums is immensely ignorant about Judaism, Jews and Judaic writings. Yet, she fills her mouth of knowledge that is based in ignorance.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Jaguar wrote: "rather the Messiah is a force of unification for the Jews. "

Of course He is - that's an unwritten understanding. If the Jews were so rich in knowledge, they'd know how to heal themselves; division is brokenness - not a way of life for believers. Ergo, the Messiah would be teaching people what they DON'T know and giving them what they NEED *IF* they accept Him as their Messiah.

" to incorporate to the new version of Abrahamic G-d."

It's not an incorporation, it's an addition - that is, expanded knowledge. This is for the more developed human soul and heart, not a more developed God.

The Jews are a CIVILIZATION - my civilization is not their civilization and theirs is not mine. Mine embraces all, regardless of their race, culture, and religious background. We accept the reality of the oneness of mankind.

Just so you know, Baha'is study ALL religions, some that are older than the OT - scriptures that covered the themes in Genesis before Moses wrote about them.

To imagine you can't learn anything new is ridiculous; but, to be determined NOT to learn anything more is wasting one's time on earth.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Zanjan, the Messiah IS a Judaic concept, deal with it. Like I said Judaism and Jews are autonomous and independent, you people are part of us but we are not part of you. As for you studying all the religions is quite a stretch, you parrot things that aren't Judaic perspectives, and give non Judaic perspective as if it Judaic.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: The Messiah is NOT a Jewish concept - it's a Jewish word for the perfect Saviour, the Promised Deliverer. This is none but the Revelator in the Cause of God. He is like Moses.

God has always promised He'd send His divine Messengers and always will - He's never broken that promise. If you bothered to study other religions, you'd know what I say is true.
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Show me the "Mashiach" concept before Judaic writings. The Messiah IS a Judaic concept, a fact.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: If you care about the truth, you'll do your own homework. Normally I don't mind sharing quotes but your attitude tells me you'd snub them anyway. I'm not going to waste my time on the insincere.
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Shut up or put up, show me records of the "Mashiach" concept before Judaic writings.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Show me you have the wherewithal to even recognize a Mashiach!
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: You don't have to recognize the Mashiach, I never said that, you are parroting things that you don't know. Mashiach IS a Judaic concept, a fact.
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Zanjan, if you had studied Judaism as you said you should have known what makes the Messiah is the fulfillment of the Messiah's task.
1.- Have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and King Solomon.
2.- Be anointed King of Israel.
3.- Return the Jewish people to Israel.
4.- Rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.
5.- Bring peace to the world and end all war.
6.- Bring knowledge of God to the world.
^^^^^
This is how Jews will recognize the Messiah, your question shows how ill educated you are in Judaic writings, Jews and Judaism.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I know what the Jews think. Your list covers vastly different Ages but you think they're the same time due to your interpretation of the texts.

King David had plenty of descendants - they don't all qualify. The time for Jewish kings is long gone and most certainly an Israeli monarchy is totally out of the question, now and in future. The Jewish people have been returned to Israel but a lot of them decided not to go. Should we blame God or the Messiah for that?

Lineages have to be traceable and prophecies have to be realistic; if not fulfilled, that makes God or the prophet into a liar.

Remember, the promise was made to *Abraham* that ALL of God's Prophets, greater and lesser, would arise from HIS descendants. If they can show their lineage tracks back to that, then this is part of the qualification.

Perhaps if you had bothered to look at the His character and virtues, listing those, you might have got that right through direct appreciation rather than misinterpretation.

Besides, by the time you figure every item on that list has been fulfilled, you wouldn't have partaken in any of its benefits. Too late to dinner. Time to do another atonement.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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E s s e n c e
E s s e n c e: Zanjan, it isn't what the Jews think, but actually what it is in Judaic writings. We have our writings, you're a Baha'i and you are grossly ignorant on Judaism, Jews and Judaic writings. Your Baha'i interpretation is inconsequential and irrelevant, you don't determine for Jews, period. To each their own.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: And the Jews don't determine what God wants and decides!
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