Theodicies. Have the Christians any answers to the problem of evil? (Page 7)

harpalycus47
harpalycus47: Did God need to make animals suffer to punish us for being the descendants of two people who he created not only with the possibility of failing, but according to Zeffur, knowing that they would fail
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: Being perfect does mean that they remain perfect. 'Here is an absolutely perfect machine. Nothing can ever go wrong with this machine as it is perfect. Oh, by the way, it usually breaks down after a couple of days.' "

No one ever asserted that 'Nothing can ever go wrong with it"
I made it perfectly clear that some beings do disobey (satan, other angels like him, atheists, etc) & some other beings obey (angels in heaven, Jesus, etc).

Why do you add nonsense that was never asserted? Do you think that adds to your invalid position in some honest way??
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: You can only destroy a perfect pair of pants if that is part of their description. i.e. they are perfectly designed to be perfectly resistant to damage and wear until the end of the week."

That ^^ is faulty logic. Pants start off perfect & they become imperfect from many things.
In the case of beings, they all start perfect & they have the free will to disobey to cause themselves to become imperfect. This isn't complicated logic.
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: You mean that God can't give you a guarantee about his creation? That he can't make something eternally perfect. What does that say about Heaven? Surely someone up there is going to make the wrong, imperfect decision and we'll be back to square one. Hey, that's some interesting theology you've got there.
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BelgianStrider
BelgianStrider: Well it seems that following some guys we have been made perfectly imperfect to be able to disobey a perfect all-loving deity so that utopia could be destroyed and all the following descendants could be punished "ad eternam"

Though, that suits perfectly more the perfect behaviour of a perfect malivolent deity in my opinion!
(Edited by BelgianStrider)
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: They can't become imperfect if they are perfect. By definition. "make (something) completely free from faults or defects" Would you regard wearing out as being a good thing, Zeffur?
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: It isn't complicated logic because it isn't logic at all.
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: I agree, Belgian. God doesn't come out of this particular story well. Many Christians have spotted this and dismiss the Garden of Eden as a myth.
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: Not that it gets him off the hook. As sole creator he is totally responsible for all the flaws and faults in his creation and, man, did he mess up.
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BelgianStrider
BelgianStrider: Again perfect object, animal, world
Nothing can go wrong.

Can't get broken, a perfect dog won't steal fom the kitchen ifit has the occasion,a perfect world wouldnot show imperfections

A perfect human will have a perfect "free will" and all his decissions will be perfectly justified.

Whenever one of those fails, it can't be considered as perfect
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: I'm going to have to go. Good to see you, Belgian. I never expected to see anyone in this quiet backwoods. Cheers.
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BelgianStrider
BelgianStrider: Have a nice time Harp. Good to see you too
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: A perfect being can't fail, by definition."

Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained to above. Created perfect with the free will ability to disobey God does not mean a being will remain perfect.

re: "So, it must have been God's decision to make them imperfect so they would fail"

Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained, God gave them free will & they disobeyed & they cause themselves to become imperfect & suffer the consequences that God stated would occur.

re: "Not if they were a perfect pair of pants that were perfectly stain resistant and perfectly impervious to damage."

Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained. Pants are created perfect & made imperfect by the people who cause damage to them.

re: "How is it that you don't understand basic logic."

I do. You do not or you are just using that illogical excuse because like the last time we had a dialog on this topic, you realized that you had nowhere to logically go, so you poison-pilled the discussion to attempt to avoid admitting your irrationality. That's a common atheist tactic.
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: Not that it gets him off the hook. As sole creator he is totally responsible for all the flaws and faults in his creation and, man, did he mess up."

The reason for true free will is to give them the choice to decide what they will do. Being created perfect & living in a perfect utopia doesn't mean that they could not disobey the only law that God set for them. God didn't create them imperfect or cause them to make the wrong decisions---they decided for themselves, even knowing the consequences. They erred by believing the liar & not the creator because they wanted to be more like God than to obey God & retain life in a perfect utopia.

Your illogical notion that they were perfect & could not become imperfect is obviously wrong because God gave them the free will to decide for themselves whether they would obey/disobey--which resulted in them becoming imperfect when they disobeyed. This isn't complicated--you are just being illogical/dishonest.
(Edited by zeffur)
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: You don't seem to be able to grasp the simple notion that perfect is without flaws. Certainly in our imperfect world things don't remain perfect, in fact they never are to begin with. But in an eternal Heaven or Garden of Eden divine perfection is eternally perfect - or it would not be perfection.
Or are you telling me that God's perfection will fail one day, or that Heaven will become imperfect in time?
Because if they are not to be the case then perfection MUST be perfect through time. If they can be perfect after this period of the fallen earth, then why cannot they be perfect before this period?
You are back to your old worn out tricks. There is something you don't like so it automatically is dishonest or illogical. What is illogical is saying that imperfect things (we don't have perfection here) become more imperfect with time as they wear, so logically, it has to be the same in Heaven. God cannot stop a perfect pair of pants wearing out or getting dirty. God cannot stop that happening? You believe that God is not omnipotent? That he cannot do something as simple as that?
Your own illogic has brought you into heresy..
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: So, let's look at this illogical argument that God that God gives them free will to decide whether to obey or not.
Fine. But they are perfect. They know what it will lead to (they have perfect relevant knowledge) they know that it is the wrong decision and they don't want to disobey God because they are in a perfect loving relationship with him.
Yes, they can choose to disobey, but would they?
You have free will. You can therefore choose, this minute, to stick your hand in a blender. It will be incredibly painful, you will lose the use of your hand and it will gain you absolutely nothing. You have free will. You can do it. But you won't. It would be beyond irrationality.
It is very simple. Free choice does not entail wrong choice.
That is 'proved' by heaven where all the saved live for eternity, still with free choice, but in the secure knowledge that no-one will make the wrong choice. Not that they can't. They just won't.
So, unless you are prepared to accept that heaven will erupt with regular recrudescences of evil, that God CANNOT give you your heavenly robes without having to issue you with clean ones every Tuesday, that God is not omnipotent, then the argument remains logical and honest.
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: And that isn't bringing God's omniscience into the picture. As he would know that Adam and Eve were going to do something that would bring immense suffering to all these people he says he loves, that would cause terror and pain to the billions and billions of animals specially created just to occupy this same blasted heath of a world and to suffer for no reason (there is no logical reason why our world should contain sentient animal life), then why didn't he stop them.
He would not interfere with free will, you will solemnly intone. But free will is not free licence. If someone on this planet is, by their own free will, planning to walk into a kindergarten with an AK47, anyone with any moral sense whatsoever would take steps to curb their free will and stop them. It is not the children's free will that they be slaughtered in terror. No-one on this planet has freely chosen to be here.
If God exists, he gave you a brain. Use your freedom to use use your brain.
And start by thinking about the argument without reaching for your big box of insults.
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: But cannot you see the blinding illogicality of saying
This perfect being did an imperfect thing.
This made them imperfect.
That's why they did the imperfect thing.
i.e Imperfection is the cause of imperfection.
You will say you didn't say this, and you didn't in these words. But that is the ridiculous argument behind your claim,
Wrong & irrational, as I have already explained, God gave them free will & they disobeyed & they cause themselves to become imperfect & suffer the consequences that God stated would occur.

Or else why mention that they become imperfect. They already are imperfect. They made the imperfect choice didn't they?

(Edited by harpalycus47)
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "harp: in an eternal Heaven or Garden of Eden divine perfection is eternally perfect - or it would not be perfection."

Wrong as usual--it's not about the original state of perfection--it's about the option of causing imperfection due to willfully choosing to disobey. Free will gives them the ability to disobey & when they do, they cause themselves to be imperfect.

You are deciding to take an illogical position to maintain an irresponsible position to try to irrationally blame God for the consequences of mankind's disobedient decisions & actions. That tactic is not tenable--it is irrational, irresponsible, disingenuous, & dishonest.
(Edited by zeffur)
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: The ability to disobey does not mean that they must disobey. You obviously haven't read what I said at all. Just the usual grab for the big box of insults.
WHY did they disobey, Zeffur?
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zeffur
zeffur: Mankind's disobedience is the cause of the loss of utopia that God created for them while they were perfect. Once imperfect, they opened Pandora's box & everything for them changed for the worse. Without God's perfection, life will never be perfect again for humans until they are saved & reconciled back to God in His kingdom. Those that love & fear God will be saved & those that do no will be forsaken.

None of the other things that you went on about are rational in any way--it's just your kooky irrational & indefensible beliefs. God's plan is to allow mankind to experience the full extent of good & evil until He executes his plan to end it. God is perfect in all that He does--humanity not liking the current situation means nothing--God knows exactly how it needs to be to accomplish exactly what He wants for mankind. In the end, all will bow to Almighty God & all those that will not see beyond their hatred for God will be humbled before God/Jesus (e.g. Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. For the Scriptures say, ‘God has put all things under his authority.’"

Spoiler alert--you are foolishly on the wrong team!
(Edited by zeffur)
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "WHY did they disobey, Zeffur?"

I have already explained that to you multiple times. Why do you lack that ability to set your confused & irrational misunderstands aside & understand what I have clearly communicated to you multiple times?? Eve chose power (to be more like God) over obedience. Adam disobeyed (most likely) because he saw that Eve didn't immediately die & because he may have wrongly thought that God deceived them & wouldn't allow them to die due to his love for them. They were both wrong. Being created perfect does not mean they could not make themselves imperfect by disobeying God. If fact, free will creates an opportunity for them to do exactly they, if they decide to do so--which they did.
(Edited by zeffur)
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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: So you are seriously advancing the argument that making the wrong choice (disobedience) makes them imperfect.
But the wrong choice was imperfect to start with. How can something wrong be perfect.
So, as they were not imperfect to begin with. But made an imperfect choice. And this made them imperfect so they could make imperfect choices.

Let me give you a simple example of the ridiculous nature of your argument.
A man sitting on top of a high wall.
'How did you get up there?'
'I pulled myself up.'
'Then how did you get up there to pull yourself up?'
'I pulled myself up, didn't I?'

Man in a broken world of wrong choices.
How did you get there?
I'm in a world of wrong choices, so I made a wrong choice.
So how did you get into that world of wrong choices in order to make that wrong choice?
I'm in a world of wrong choices, aren't I?

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harpalycus47
harpalycus47: You say Eve chose power over obedience.
Was that the right choice, Zeffur?
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zeffur
zeffur: re: "So you are seriously advancing the argument that making the wrong choice (disobedience) makes them imperfect."

Not choice--actual decision & deed.

re: "But the wrong choice was imperfect to start with. How can something wrong be perfect."

Why do you confuse yourself to think that is a valid thought???

The wrong decision leads to disobedience & undesirable consequences. The imperfection does not being until after they disobey, obviously.
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