Theodicies. Have the Christians any answers to the problem of evil? (Page 8)

zeffur: re: "So, as they were not imperfect to begin with. But made an imperfect choice. And this made them imperfect so they could make imperfect choices."

Once again, you irrationally confuse yourself. They WERE perfect until after they disobeyed. Then they became imperfect. No one ever asserted that they could not make the wrong decision. Their brain works like everyone else's--they evaluate the facts & made their decision. They just made the decision that made them imperfect, ruined their utopia, & caused them to die--that is the consequence of disobedience.

harpalycus47: So the actual decision, to choose between obedience and disobedience, was NOT a choice?
How can to choose not entail a choice?

And its a very simple question.
How can something wrong be perfect?

Was Eve NOTperfect then, Zeffur?

harpalycus47: If they were perfect, Zeffur, then how could they make the wrong choice. They knew what the right choice was and chose not to make it. That is not perfection.

harpalycus47: What are you blathering on about. I assert that they could not make a wrong decision if they were perfect.
If I sold you a calculator as absolutely perfect in every way and it gave you the wrong answer, you would be happy with that?

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: You say Eve chose power over obedience. Was that the right choice, Zeffur?"

The right choice was to obey God--which they likely did for a very long time.

Why is it the right choice? Because in the end, all those that will be saved will be restored to God's perfection in a new utopia. Those that hate God because they are not & will never be God will be forsaken & not be part of that eternal future utopia.

So, you see, what God has actually done is created a pathway for His creations that are worthy & forsaking those who are unworthy.

harpalycus47: As omniscient, shouldn't God know who is unworthy to begin with. And what's he doing creating unworthy things?

harpalycus47: And why did Eve make a wrong choice, Zeffur, no matter how long she had making right ones. She was perfect. How could she make the wrong choice. That, by definition, is imperfect.

harpalycus47: And let's follow this particular rabbit down the rabbit hole. Why did God create unworthy things?

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: So the actual decision, to choose between obedience and disobedience, was NOT a choice?"

Obedience & disobedience are the choices/options.

When one obeys--s/he has decided to not disobey (i.e. remain perfect).
When one disobeys--sh/he has decided to disobey & become imperfect & subject to consequences.

re: "How can to choose not entail a choice?"

That ^^ isn't proper English.

re: "And its a very simple question. How can something wrong be perfect?"

Who ever said the choice & decision to be disobedient was a perfect?? Surely not me.

re: "Was Eve NOT perfect then, Zeffur?"

You really just cannot get beyond your own irrational confusions, can you?

Eve was perfect until she disobeyed. She preferred power over obedience--which cause her to disobey. Before she disobeyed, she was perfect--but, she (like any other human with free will can make a wrong decision, as we all have that option when given free will).
All beings (even today) are created perfect with free will--and all of them can decide to disobey or to obey--unfortunately, too many of them disobey (e.g. smokers, abuses of chemicals & their bodies, haters of God, people abort/murder unborn fetuses, queers, etc--they are easy to spot amongst humanity.

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: And let's follow this particular rabbit down the rabbit hole. Why did God create unworthy things?"

He didn't. He created all beings perfect--they are just corrupted by various forces to disobey.

harpalycus47: Then explain by what you meant when you said
So, you see, what God has actually done is created a pathway for His creations that are worthy & forsaking those who are unworthy.
Who created the unworthy things if it wasn't God?
"

harpalycus47: Just corrupted. By what, Zeffur, give me an example of these corrupting things that seem to inhabit the perfect Garden of Eden.

harpalycus47: So, we have corruption and unworthy things in the Garden along with an imperfect Eve (and Adam, he made the wrong choice in listening to Eve.
God didn't do a very good job did he. Goodness knows the mess that Heaven will be like.

zeffur: re: "harpalycus47: If they were perfect, Zeffur, then how could they make the wrong choice."

Because beings have the free will to decided for themselves. Some of them have decided to disobey.

re: "They knew what the right choice was and chose not to make it. That is not perfection."

Because they have free will & can decide for themselves. No one said they were omniscient. They aren't God. You have some kind of irrational confusion in your brain that because they are created shiny & new (il.e. perfect) that the cannot make any wrong decisions---obviously that is a very irrational conclusion that is 100% against everything we know is true about beings. Why do you make such an irrational belief for yourself?? Once again, they are NOT God--they the created.

re: "I assert that they could not make a wrong decision if they were perfect."

I'm aware & you are confused & wrong about that notion--as I have made you perfectly well aware of over & over.

re: "If I sold you a calculator as absolutely perfect in every way and it gave you the wrong answer, you would be happy with that?"

The average nitwit heathen would likely put out his cigarette on it, pour his alcohol over it, & then chase you away for trying to sell him a thing that doesn't serve his hedonistic goals in any way.

Why would any being smoke cigarettes when s/he knows they can lead to lung cancer? It's an expensive, filthy, & disgusting habit that leads to death? Could it be that they aren't all mentally that well off?? God didn't guarantee everyone would have the mind of Newton or Einstein, did he??

harpalycus47: Decided not to obey is THE WRONG CHOICE, Zeffur.

re: "I assert that they could not make a wrong decision if they were perfect."
I'm aware & you are confused & wrong about that notion--as I have made you perfectly well aware of over & over.

Repetitious denial is not an argument,.

Is disobedience to God wrong or not, Zeffur?

harpalycus47: Do you need the brain of an Einstein to obey God and to know that it is right to obey God and wrong not to?
If it does then God should have given us the brain of Einstein. If a child honestly can't understand a maths lesson you explain it better, not beat them and throw them out of the school.

zeffur: Disobedience is a sin & wrong. Every being has free will to sin. That does not mean they were not created perfect--it means the moment that s/he disobeys, s/he becomes imperfect.

harpalycus47: So choosing disobedience is wrong. Is that not correct, Zeffur

zeffur: Being disobedient results in sin which results in consequence. The immediate consequence is imperfection. The more a being sins the greater the imperfection & the greater her/his separation from God's perfection.

harpalycus47: So, why should a perfect being choose the wrong decision. Indeed how could it? It knows it is wrong and it is perfect so it will do what is right.

harpalycus47: You said that Eve chose power over obedience. Was that the right decision, Zeffur?
Shouldn't she have made the right decision?

harpalycus47: I would still like to know where the unworthy came from if God din't make them.

zeffur: No being 'should' disobey. The better question is why do beings sin for power over obedience, or fornicate, or smoke, or steal, etc Because they can & they want something more than being obedient to God.

harpalycus47: I would still like to know exactly what this corruption was that invested the Garden of Eden.

harpalycus47: No, the best question is why should any perfect being disobey God? You said that Eve preferred power to obedience. Was that perfect reasoning, Zeffur?