If God exists, where is he? (Page 122)

Zanjan: So, this matter of “taste” is interesting. Has too much salt in our diet burned off the sensitivity of our tastebuds? How can we wake up them up?

I live in farming and ranching country – these are plain food people, who eat like people did in the 50’s. I doubt there’s more than two vegetarians among them and certainly not a single native- born gourmand.

However, there seems to be a change lately. The Covid Pandemic made them sick and tired of isolation, eating the same old at home or drive through fast food. They’re willing to be more daring, even the rodeo guys.

As you know, many new foods are delicious but some are an acquired taste.

When backed into a corner, one wont like “punch & texture” the first time because the strangeness messes with the head. One doesn’t know what to think……….until the second time. Now that they’ve got an introduction, they find it’s not so bad, maybe not their favourite…….until the third time. Then POW! They love it! Can’t get enough of it!

This is how it was with me and Asian Cardamom Rice Cake. What began with a tight wince, ended in delightful romance. It was the same when I came into contact with a brand new religion. Ever after, there has been a longing desire that never leaves me – it’s true appreciation.

ghostgeek: Mmm, yes, I can relate to the above. At one time I never used to eat olives but now I've got jars of the things. Yep, figs too when they look ripe. Of course, there's are limits, so religion is firmly off the menu because I find it quite indigestible.

ghostgeek: Talking of eating, why does everything go in for it? It's cruel and painful and not at all what I'd associate with a loving creator god. Now the Devil; yes I could see such a personage creating living things with teeth and gullets and stomachs that always need filling. So is the need to eat evidence that the early Christians were right in thinking that a debased creator god, the Demiurge, made us all?

ghostgeek: When next you eat a nice big juicy steak, presuming you aren't a vegetarian, just think of all the suffering you're chewing down. Then ask yourself how God could have created such a barbaric process for his creations if he wasn't wholly evil?

bonzono: Zanjan: "Bonzono, your citation addresses the conditions in Australia'
the first one does, sure, and I only need one example to prove the point, but you clearly lack the integrity to keep reading - I provided another 4 or 5 written by various institutions around the world. You're wrong.

None of the rest of your post is relevant whatsoever, but redirection and misinformation is how religious people attempt to sidetrack a point they know cuts to the core of their dishonesty.

The point being of course, that religion raises its ugly head when people decide that it's appropriate to supplant faith with fact - that happens nowadays, in cases of ignorance and/or desperation.

It's shameful to me that people like you attempt to justify what you know to be a mythical story with obfuscation, misinformation and redirection.

You and I both know that what you call 'faith' isnt a virtue - as I said: it's a pretty word you use to try to redirect attention from what is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.

Your god is made up, zanjan - the complete lack of anything other than people like you saying idiotic dishonest things like 'i feel god' (for example) - when not for a moment would you accept anyone else from any other religion attempting to make the same justification.

For shame, zanjan. Perhaps the 13th century would be more to your liking?

Zanjan: What you know and what I know isn't the same stuff.

Since I don't need to be told what I know, I'll return the favour.

Zanjan: Ghost: “At one time I never used to eat olives………..”

Me too. Now, I enjoy black olives as an ingredient; the exception is freshly made black olive paste – love that smeared thickly inside a grilled Italian sandwich. I tried it after seeing an Italian cook experiencing a dreamy ecstasy while eating it – didn’t want to miss anything.

Normally, I’m quite adventurous with food but green olives still hold no allure for me. Other than that, I never met a fruit I didn’t like.

“When next you eat a nice big juicy steak, presuming you aren't a vegetarian, just think of all the suffering you're chewing down”

When eating a steak, I can only think about adding another dollop of the Chimichurri Aioli!
Ghost, I’m not eating the animal alive - by legal regulations and strict monitoring, it’s been killed humanely. One day, I think nearly everyone will be vegetarian; it’s best if they grew up on that diet.

We live in times where it’s difficult to make the switch as a full gown adult, especially when some family members at the table aren’t on board with it. One can’t be cooking a different meal for each person on a daily basis so that’s bound to be a very challenging situation. I know, I’ve tried it.

Now, as a widowed senior, I live alone so I have the freedom but I’m too old – I’ve tried. It’s too late. The palate won’t let you forget.

Likewise, it’s the same with religion. Thus, comes the wise warning: “Never Delay”.

ghostgeek: Some things don't take, and for me religion is one of them. Just can't figure why people believe what in any other setting would be treated as fit only for children. Do angels whisper in people's ears, do stars move about the heavens, stop, then start moving again? In children's stories and religion they do, yes, but in what we laughingly call the "real world" such things don't happen and that's important. The "miraculous" always happens in the distant past or far, far away; never up close where it could be investigated by cold-eyed brainboxes with slide rules and pointy probes. Well, if something can't be probed and weighed, I'm thinking it's as real as the end of the rainbow.

ghostgeek: Do you want to know about Jesus Christ? If so, whatever you do don't start talking to New Testament scholars. Each one of them has an opinion different to all the rest, so confusion is the reigning certainty.

ghostgeek: Jesus Christ is supposedly the most influential person ever but who, in reality, was he? Drop the Gospels in a cesspit and all you're left with is a guy who got himself crucified. Not exactly the most impressive life story ever told.

bonzono: zanjan" Since I don't need to be told what I know, I'll return the favour. "

Then dont lie and pretend that the information I gave you is limited. You have plenty of information from around the world, not just australia.

But I get it - you dont enjoy the idea that religion is most readily adopted and most widespread among people with poor education (and to clarify - poor education- i.e. ignorance, is not the same as being stupid: we're all ignorant about a lot of things, It's just that religious people seem so consistently ignorant about critical thought, intellectual honesty and basic reason. A good example occurred when you tried to insist I'd given only one resource, when I'd clearly given four or five).

There is no intellectually honest way to legitimately claim a god is real - religious people try to get around that by claiming 'faith', as I said.

Faith has never, ever been a reliable substitute for honesty, intelligence or reason.

Ever.

Zanjan: Ghost: “Just can't figure why people believe what in any other setting would be treated as fit only for children.”

Let me help you with that. Religion is a school – it teaches all grades; within those grades is a diversity of ranks and stations and mental capacities. Religion speaks to them all, depriving no one.

The older a religion becomes, the more the slower- paced individuals take up the space in the building. This is not to be criticized - think of those as ‘special needs classes’. They’re good for a range of conditions plus historical research.

The Quran is an excellent Book to study this because it’s wrapped up in a lovely neat package. Muhammad addresses His speech to each category of people, naming them in the opener so you know exactly who His target is. The catagories are:

Humanity; the believers (in Muhamad); the unbelievers (in Muhammad); the people of the Book (Adamic religions); the hypocrites; the rejectors of faith; and, to the individual reader. No question, you’ll know if you’re an observer or if He’s speaking to YOU.

There must be a sensible, honest adult in the room to assist and mentor the simple people. Eventually, one student will catch fire and be off to the races. Pay no regard to things that look like fun to some but are hedonistic to the rest.

God decides where each one belongs – everything in existence is capable of progressing.

Zanjan: Ghost: “The "miraculous" always happens in the distant past…….”

That’s how outsiders see it. There’s no shortage of non-religious individuals who’ve experienced an event they claim is a miracle – that is, a result that defies all odds. No self-respecting religious person would call them a liar because they’re also grateful for the unusual outcome. They share in the joy, celebrating together.

Understanding the technicalities didn’t bring the miracle about so there’s no excuse to argue the reality.

"all you're left with is a guy who got himself crucified. Not exactly the most impressive life story ever told. "

I'd certainly be impressed if YOU gave up your life for a religion. Everyone, I'm sure, would agree that would be a miracle.

Some people like surprises, some not, but genuine Martyrdom never gets old.

bonzono: 'There’s no shortage of non-religious individuals who’ve experienced an event they claim is a miracle – that is, a result that defies all odds"

A result that defies odds isnt a miracle, that's just an unlikely event.

a miracle is divine intervention, and no such event has ever been recorded.

A miracle is not 'wow, how did that happen , I have no idea. GOD DUN IT!"

"I'd certainly be impressed if YOU gave up your life for a religion"
why? you'd be impressed they'd suffered some mental impairment and now experience cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty for their entire lives?

Sounds like a tragic waste of potential in my opinion.

ghostgeek: Without those four Gospels to hand, who could say why Jesus was crucified. Just another bloke getting himself into a ticklish spot of bother and being nailed to a cross for his troubles. It must have happened thousands of times under the Romans, so in itself it was unremarkable.

ghostgeek: For Paul, Jesus was only important for one thing. He was reportedly seen after his death. That sure doesn't sound to me like Jesus the man was significant in his own day. Just a bumpkin who was bumped off, his worth rested solely on him sticking around for a little longer than was customary.

Zanjan: If the Jewish clergy and the Pagans had been in their right mind, they'd never have made a martyr of Jesus. What a boomerange effect that was!
Heck, even the American government knew better than that when they took out Bin Laden.

Criminals might write a book but none get the readership the New Testament does, which is only because of it's founding figure - Jesus.

Zanjan: Then along came Muhammad - He didn't have to die to get His Message across.

ghostgeek: OK, so Muhammad got his message across with the help of a sword or two, but Jesus had no message as far as history is concerned. Just a guy who got nailed to a cross and who's after death appearances formed the basis of Paul's cult for Gentiles.

Zanjan: "but Jesus had no message as far as history is concerned"

Such a shame you didn't understand the things He said. Not to worry, you can always take note of the things He did, considering what little He had to work with.

He brought formerly exclusive cultural and religious groups together and made people obedient to the laws. He increased women's rights and freedoms. He raised intellectual capacity and bettered the arts.
Despite innovative individuals being scarce, His light advanced mankind's knowledge of technology a wee bit over 500 years (His dispensation); however, it was nothing one could do too much damage with:

The invention of precision clockwork machines, the vertical water wheel, steam power, the first smooth paper (not papyrus), vending machines, concrete, a double entry bookkeeping system, seismometer and pendulum, mechanical carding, crystalized sugar, wood block printing, chess, dichroic glass, mariner's compass, simple suspension bridge, fishing reel, oil wells and borehole, and paddle-wheel boat.

The fact that I can list ALL of them shows you how small the ancient world was. Yet each was a big deal because everything which came after was built on these foundations. From a seed grows a tree.

From the viewpoint of the elite, we have a good idea what the world was like when Jesus arrived. However, had it not been for the scriptures, we wouldn't have known how the clergy and common folk thought.

GeraldtheGnome: There are still errors in various ways on here. Muhammad doesn't exist, Ghostgeek still has it down that Jesus and Paul definitely both existed. He hasn't even shown that even one of them existed. Jesus never existed, every name for Christ that was ever used was never about someone who existed.

To Zanjan. There is no such thing as The American Government. There is however the government of The United States of America. Each religious god is made up, the claims on each one can be disproven. There might be at least one god or goddess around somewhere right now though. No one will ever know one way or the other.

To Bonzono. Cut out the rubbish about intellectual honesty, your crappy myth about what you mistakenly think is true about all 'medical doctors' and use English properly by using the best suited words to replace the words cognitive dissonance that you think the use of means that you are smart just because you found those words in a thesaurus. I even question if you even are in the same city and even same hemisphere as I am since you use North American terms that almost every Australian so far has not used.

ghostgeek: What did Jesus say? Logical to presume he said quite a bit in a lifetime but Paul failed to pass any of it on. Of course, for most people that doesn't raise a problem because they've got the mighty Gospels to peruse, but what if those self same Gospels are fiction? Here we hit a bit of a problem; how to tell if the Gospels are made-up hokum.

ghostgeek: OK, so how does anyone know that the Gospels aren't blathering liars? What acid test is there that proves them to be honest to God accounts of Jesus' ministry and death?

ghostgeek: I've long believed that the Gospels are spinning a yarn, one that suckers find enduringly attractive. They exist apart from any other record from their time, can call on zero evidence to support their narrative and conflict with each other. Still, I suppose it is possible that some tradition lies behind them but it's near on impossible to discern what it might be.

ghostgeek: First, did Paul exist? Well, there are seven letters of his that most scholars accept are genuine. So were they written by the man we now call Paul. Who can tell, but it's clear that SOMEBODY wrote them and that person had something to say about Jesus.