If God exists, where is he? (Page 5)

ghostgeek: Follow the world's scriptures Zanjan says if you want to know where God is. From that am I to presume that the spiritual plane is atop Mount Olympus in Greece?

ghostgeek: Maybe it's atop some other mountain, or revolving around the earth as a crystal sphere? Or maybe it resides in the imagination of those who write scripture?

ghostgeek: Do we need physical bodies to exist? Anecdotal evidence might suggest the answer is no but most people don't seem in any hurry to find out.

ghostgeek: But if we existed in this spiritual plane in a state of suspended animation, as you would if time didn't exist there, could it be said that you had a life up above the clouds?

lori100: no, various teachers say we chose a physical life, they also say most life is non physical, ....a guy traveling out of body tried to explain physical life on a physical planet to a non physical being who seemed to think the idea was insane--it had never been physical

GeraldtheGnome: Some mistakes were made on here. None of us chose to be alive as we are, we were just born and that’s it, no god was involved in it. No one even knows if there even is at least one god around somewhere right now. I don’t use the word exist because some claim that he is around somewhere right now as a ball of gas or a ball of energy or ball of light or like Gozer from Ghostbusters. The twins in one of The Matrix movies did an out of body experience by turning into ghosts which was really cool, it’s a science fiction fantasy though. Too many full stops, multiple hyphens/dashes and the lack of capitals and yet not a full stop where it’s needed to be. Oh dear. Anyway out of body stuff is about the mind not working properly and the non physical stuff is just very silly. These are text messages, no one has literally said anything on here. There have been videos put on here that some people have said some stuff though.

lori100: bummer

Zanjan: Ghost, you’d be a nihilist if you think there’s no hereafter, no God, and that death is the final end for you and everything that ever lived.

You speak of having only one old religious book – why restrict yourself to that? Why not branch out and read other scriptures, including the Quran? Perhaps you’ll find more answers in them. The worst you could do is expand your knowledge base.

I personally found that reading other scriptures was enlightening, helping me to understand something in one book that I'd previously been stumbling over. Sometimes, you'll read exactly the same thing in all of them with just the words re-arranged a little. That can make a difference since we don't all have brains wired the same way.

FYI, the pagans don’t have a Revelator or scriptures. They have a set of rules and rituals collected from various folk backgrounds, adding to it their own idea of morality. Greek mythology might convey a few dynamics but I think Aesop’s Fables are better as they address the moral spectrum.

Zanjan: Ghost: “if we existed in this spiritual plane in a state of suspended animation, as you would if time didn't exist there, could it be said that you had a life up above the clouds?”

Since there’s no suspended animation on any plane, it seems pointless to ruminate over what would happen if there was. Anything that moves of its own accord has life.

GeraldtheGnome: I hate the word nihilist, there possibly is no hereafter, there certainly is no god named God except for a dreamt up name in The Dark Ages of The Middle Ages to replace the dreamt up name of the Latin god named Deus that replaced the Greek Theos that replaced the Hebrew name for the imaginary god. It doesn't matter what name is used for any god of any religion because they are all made up. The Quran is just another chain of stories that include Human interpretations of the unknown. Where's Muhammad also ? When you look past the guesses about him there is nothing to show that he ever existed. The worst you could do is expand your own knowledge base because so far you are very gullible when it comes to superstitious beliefs.

What's with no capitals by some ? What's with no full stops at times ? What's with commas before the word and as well as some other things. What's with hyphens/dashes for no reasons ? This Relevator bit is not even proper English. Ruminate ? Are we actually Cattle now ? Things can actually move on their own accord and not be a form of life. What's with this Him bit ? It's just him. Pagans had scriptures and the FYI bit is just annoying.

ghostgeek: I would agree that Pagans had their scriptures, even if they were passed down the generations orally. As for Revelators, why should we think they only popped up in a few places if they ever existed at all?

ghostgeek: We hear a lot about the Christian God but what about some of the alternatives? The Africans, for instance have some interesting notions:

No single body of religious beliefs and practices can be identified as African. It is possible, however, to identify similarities in worldviews and ritual processes across geographic and ethnic boundaries. Generally speaking, African religions hold that there is one creator God, the maker of a dynamic universe. Myths of various African peoples relate that, after setting the world in motion, the Supreme Being withdrew, and he remains remote from the concerns of human life. According to a myth of the Dinka of South Sudan, God withdrew from the world after the first woman lifted her pestle to pound millet and struck the sky. The story, which is found in many traditions across the continent, explains that, although this withdrawal introduced toil, sickness, and death, it freed humans from the constraints of God’s immediate control.

Despite the general belief in a Supreme Being, cults to the “high God” are notably absent from many African religions; prayers of petition or sacrificial offerings are directed toward secondary divinities, who are messengers and intermediaries between the human and sacred realms. In West Africa, among the Asante of Ghana, for example, elders regularly pour libations and offer prayers to Nyame, the Creator, giving thanks and seeking blessing. The most significant aspect of Asante ritual life, however, is the veneration of matrilineal ancestors, who are considered the guardians of the moral order. According to the mythology of the Dogon of Mali, the Creator, Amma, brought the world into existence by mixing the primordial elements with the vibration of his spoken word, though the principal cult is directed to the Nommo, primordial beings and first ancestors, rather than to Amma. In Nigeria the Yoruba hold that the Almighty Creator, Olorun, oversees a pantheon of secondary divinities, the orisha. Devotion to the orisha is active and widespread, but Olorun has neither priests nor cult groups. Similarly, in the Great Lakes region of East Africa, the Supreme Being, Mulungu, is thought to be omnipresent but is sought only in prayers of last resort; clan divinities are appealed to for intervention in most human affairs. Among the Nuer people of South Sudan as well as the Dinka, God is addressed in prayers of petition only after recourse to the secondary divinities has been exhausted.

[ https://www.britannica.com/topic/African-religions ]

ghostgeek: Doesn't sound like those African Supreme Beings stick their nose into human affairs quite so gratuitously as does the Abrahamic God. Something to be applauded in my opinion.

ghostgeek: Anyway, after that digression back to Christian theology. As far as I can make out, the majority view is that God exists outside of time:

In philosophical discussions about God and time, the term “eternity” has been used in different ways. On one usage, which will be followed here, “eternity” stands for the relationship to time that God has, whatever it is. When used in that way, the term is neutral between different ways of spelling out what God’s relationship to time is. Western theists agree that God is eternal; the task is to formulate and assess conceptions of what this eternality might amount to.

Broadly speaking, there have been two rival views of what God’s eternality consists in. On the first, God is timeless (divine timelessness); on the second, God is in time (divine temporality). Sometimes the term “eternity” is used to denote timelessness, but as mentioned, we will here use it as neutral between the timeless and temporal views. The term “everlasting” (or “sempiternal”) on the other hand, is mostly associated with the temporal view. On the temporal view, God is in time and thus exists at every time; there is no time at which God doesn’t exist. ...

Until recently, the timelessness view dominated in both philosophy and theology. For that reason, much of the historical discussion revolves around that view.

[ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/eternity/ ]

ghostgeek: So if we subscribe to the majority view we have to see God as existing in a timeless limbo where the concepts of past, future and present are meaningless. God just "is", full stop, and anything that joins Him in this limbo will likewise be a static, inert "thing". This leaves one question to be answered. Can something that is inert be said to be alive? I think not.

Zanjan: I don't see how you derived your conclusions from the paper you cited. That's ok, such things as negotiating time is hardly important when compared to purpose. You won't go to hell if you get it wrong. Rather, one gets it wrong because they start with a twisted view and never let go long enough to let it unwind.

Furthermore, why should it matter where God is when you'll never share space with Him anyway? As it is, your distance from Him can hardly be calculated by humans - when you're feeling the cold shoulder, it's enough to say it's "far".

Regarding the question of pagan writings:

“The idea that final or absolute truth could be contained within a written text or series of texts has no support within the Pagan community.”

https://www.patheos.com/library/pagan/origins/scriptures

Read more here:
https://www.wondriumdaily.com/ancient-paganism-and-modern-religion/

Zanjan: Ghost: “As for Revelators, why should we think they only popped up in a few places if they ever existed at all?”

For a couple reasons. A Revelator has the highest possible rank and most powerful station. He will definitely leave a major impact not only on His local community but on all mankind. No one has produced books or communities to match that of the Revelators; nor has anyone created such an enduring legacy as these holy souls have.

The Revelator is the cause of the spiritual regeneration of every soul and the advancement of civilization – you can line up those leaps with their lives. They’ve never erred and all their prophecies and promises have been fulfilled.

Zanjan: One can find numerous similarities between African tribal religions because these people are much the same as people elsewhere in the world – they adopt a truth then hold to traditions formulated by the opinionated which, over generations, wanders from reality. The people become confused; how much faster a remote tribe will experience that depreciation.

You think God doesn't know that?

Moses came to them; they either accepted or rejected Him. There's been a long-standing tribal Jewish community in Africa to this day. They heard of Christ; again, some rejected, some accepted. The biggest success for African Christianity was in Ethiopia. The tribes also heard of Muhammad - it's the same pattern all over again.

No matter how remote one is, God makes sure His people know. The first to hear are those in the Eastern hemisphere.

ghostgeek: If, as most theologians seem to think, God exists outside of time then He can't be prancing about doing things. If you doubt this, try buttering up a slice of toast in zero time. I'll wager you won't get very far and neither would God.

ghostgeek: Now about these Revelators. Google "Revelators" and you're told they're an Australian blues rock band that formed in 1989. Mmm, that didn't seem quite what I was looking for so I had another go and came up with this:

At the April, 2009 annual conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Thomas Monson was formally set apart as the “Prophet, Seer and Revelator” of the church.

[ https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/midwestern-journal-theology/09-2_145.pdf ]

So it seems that a Revelator is an integral part of the Mormon Church, something I didn't know before.

ghostgeek: Doesn't seem the Eastern hemispere holds any monopoly on them if the Mormons are happily minting new Revelators.

GeraldtheGnome: Each time I type in the word Revelators it does come up as a spelling mistake. I think what is really meant by that mistake is that of prophets, each prophecy that they came out with never ended up happening. That is no surprise. The gods of each religion are imaginary however this doesn't mean that there isn't possibly at least one god around somewhere right now and it's possible that they are all made up.

The Christian god named God has only been named that since some unknown time in The Dark ages of The Middle Ages. I wish the word worldviews was avoided. Even that was considered a spelling mistake on here. If there is one creator god then it is about one creator god, it's not about one creator God. God is a religious name only used when English, Afrikaans, Frisian and Dutch is used. Every other Christian uses other names for the Christian god and those that don't use English, that don't use any of the languages where God is used never use the name God at all. I liked the stuff about various African gods on here. Too many capitals have been used. I hate the word digression. Eternity doesn't mean forever and forever doesn't mean eternity ? They mean the same thing. I love the belief that everything had a beginning according to some and then afterwards they make an exception like that of a god or something else was around before that. Both can't be true at the same time. Everything within the void of space had a start and an end. What is around now within the void of space will have an end and what will be around in the void of space in the future will have an end

For something to exist it has to be a life form or a virus (which I consider a type of life form anyway), if it's possible then a god can be around without existing in a manner that isn't considered a form of life. How can it be proved though ? By no means whatsoever.

No one knows if there is a hell or not. Since I didn't see that it was created in the early Hebrew text then I have to tell everyone that the version of hell that some believe in is made up. There were some other mistakes on here. Some of which include using Him rather than him and to some other things that are referred to on here. The word is writing, not writings, there is no such things as a final truth. Use text, not texts. The word station shouldn't be used in certain ways, it's his, not His and there shouldn't be semi colons around where one shouldn't be. There is no proof that even one soul of any type is around. If however the grammatically incorrect word Revelators is not about a prophet but about the supernatural being that sends the message then it's about those who are made up. Humans told some tales and some of them wrote some of it down, that's it.

There's no need for hyphens/dashes where there shouldn't be any. Moses is made up, there are also too many semi-colons on here. No one can reject or accept those who never existed. Some heard stories about a Christ, that was it, again, no one can reject or accept anyone who never existed.Some tribes in what is now Ethiopia also heard and read stories of Judaism and Christianity. Later on some tribes there also heard of a Muhammad who is still thought to exist even though he didn't. It's the same pattern all over again with Zanjan.

I didn't know that some band got the name Revelators in my country. People, not peoples, is a word.

Zanjan: Ghost¨”If you doubt this, try buttering up a slice of toast in zero time.”

There you go again, giving the wrong analogy. Toast and time exist in the physical realm, God doesn’t. Meanwhile, you can’t show any evidence at all that absence of time affects anything. All things physical will degrade – wear and tear cause that, not time.

“Thomas Monson was formally set apart as the “Prophet, Seer and Revelator” of the church.”

They can say whatever they like but claims don’t prove reality. For example, the NT Book “Revelations” is mislabeled; John was a lesser prophet – that is, seer of the future of Christianity but not a Revelator. Factually, he never claimed to be the Word of God. Originally, that book was called the “Apocalypse of John”, which was the correct title.

A true Revelator is a Manifestation of God; He delivers an independent religion with a new dispensation and thus, new scriptures, new laws, and new knowledge. This is what makes His rank so high - He's the Word of God.

If Monson were an actual Revelator, he wouldn’t be a church member because Jesus Christ was the Revelator of Christianity. Mormons claim to be Christians. A faq check of all religious history should sort this out for you.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. No doubt Mormons think they’ve got enough proof (of rank) but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny by those who've done their research via independent investigation of truth. A claim made before God WILL be severely tested.

Zanjan: Gerald, your denial of history that you don't like isn't proof of anything. The onus is on each of us to do our own research without prejudice.

In our time, there's no excuse not to do it. All the means are available to each of us. A protest before God that you merely followed what everybody else believed or was doing won't be accepted in His presence.

ghostgeek: What does being outside of time mean if it doesn't equate to an absence of time? And if time is absent, how can anything happen? Simple questions, I know, but that doesn't mean they can be sidestepped.