Proof of God's Existence: Yes or No?
DIAMONDfire: A common argument made that God does not exist is based on the presence of evil in this world, how can God allow evil? The counter argument is a person chooses between Good and Evil and this is God's way of doing business. But this argument invokes natural skepticism due to its focus on the personal, which is understandable given that humans' are curious by nature. That aside another usable argument in this case is based on a more reasoned stance: is war to be favoured over peace or peace to be favoured over war? This question seems to be unanswerable, both arguments on either side are equally strong and compelling, just like the argument, is waste meant to be reabsorbed back into the earth completely biodegradable or is invention meant to reign, leaving waste behind? This too seems to be unanswerable as each argument is as strong as the other. I propose it is proof of God's existence, because only a God would leave the human race with such a conundrum, only a God would have that much power to do so. We can't answer those two questions definitively, we can only work to the best of our abilities and strengths, God is resting over us clearly though because we know that we don't know the answers.
This may not be popular but comment on it if you like, I say the quickest way to go to heaven is to worship a stone.
God is a stone.
Zanjan: " is war to be favoured over peace or peace to be favoured over war? This question seems to be unanswerable, both arguments on either side are equally strong and compelling,"
Always peace. There's no argument there because the advantages of peace far outweigh those of destruction; ergo, peace is the most desirable.
The trick is to establish peace and keep it. Man is still learning how. Anyone can break something; conversely, it takes a special mind and the persistence to build it. Once built, it's not difficult to maintain.
While destruction is occasionally necessary, the purpose should be to recycle/ rebuild a better product. Sustainability is always the most advantageous choice so, no argument there either.
" only a God would leave the human race with such a conundrum, only a God would have that much power to do so."
If we humans couldn't solve a conundrum, God would tell us how to do it. If not for God, we wouldn't have the questions in the first place - just like the animals. Since we ARE different, He's never left us alone and has consistently guided us through every Age and millennia.
If anyone is a stone, it's us. Are we pebbles, rocks, or mountains? God is unconditioned yet if He were unmovable, He wouldn't have answered our prayers. Mercy wouldn't approach us.
DIAMONDfire: If we are stones then we wouldn't have the mind to determine what God wants, I assert that God is a stone because He wants us to determine the issues of life. If our belief was a stone then we would have no doubt about God's existence, which we do indeed have when we lay out determinations in God's name. That is how belief is diminished. To establish proof of God's existence is likened to a craftsman honing his craft, it takes years to find the right recipe to make the greatest product. So how is it possible to know that God prefers peace over war or war over peace? I said that God is a stone because He wants us to know who He is, how can we assert such qualities to God, and then expect God to adhere to our wishes? Who are we to have a right over God, to assert what is what in God's eyes? The proof of God comes when one knows where and why He is, one can then live with Him, or Her? And, if there was always peace God wouldn't exist because He created war, and if there was always invention what need would there be for God? God is a stone because He wants us to see, to apprehend the power He has to intervene in the affairs of the world.
Now I admit I came in through the back door on God, many do. But how is it so many people know what God wants by default? The utterance of God's name is the most sacred of spiritual activities, so how can we have so much confidence and say over these matters? How can we know simply what we don't know? Because God doesn't tell us that. We tell ourselves that and expect God to comply, that is when we get into trouble.
Zanjan: "But how is it so many people know what God wants by default? "
We can perceive God's attributes because we each share those to some degree - that's how we relate. God's purpose in creating us is so we could know Him and love Him. Therefore, He gave us the capacity and means to recognize Him. However, all we can know of God, we can only know through His Revelators.
God's Will is a different matter. That depends on the sphere of interest.
The small sphere: What He wants for you, as an individual, depends on your response to Him and your own spiritual condition.
The wider sphere: What He wants for His choicest ones will be at another level.
The grand sphere: What He wants for all humanity.
All that has to fall into His Divine Plan for mankind. We'd never be able to know that on our own. How would we know where we were going if we didn't know what Age we're living in?
Thus, God has made sure we know what His Will is for our stage in that Plan; He does this by sending His Revelators to tell us. That means we have an indestructible record of where we've been; and for the future, no man can prevent it or stop it - just goes better for us if we understand and don't fight against it.
The Being of the living God, on the other hand, is incomprehensible. To say He's a stone is to conceive Him in one's own imagination. We are the surrounded; He's the One who surrounds. Ergo, He's beyond what the finite human mind can grasp.
DIAMONDfire: I suppose my view is about passing into eternity at root it is a mode of coming to an understanding of God, on this basis. On a personal level I've always been a somewhat passive man, I'm not comfortable asserting my will over others. My view of God is passive and I feel in Biblical terms Christ-likeness sums up the entire issue. And as a student of literature I don't go in in full for colourful word images describing this and that in the afterlife, it's flower to me. In literature there is a notion described as the death of the author, and it means in a sense the author dies to his work, that it is a record of the dead. That is more so how I view literary particulars and the Bible doesn't make an exception for me, other than the core components. Which I would argue are living in the sense, but in the sense of fundamental application to life-issues, in other words I see God as the God of the Living exclusively. That means I cut a lot of the descriptives out, not to suggest it's not important but the idea is to pass into eternity, and die as I understand it. If this action on earth can be made any more clearer as in a spiritual practice, then I assert this is worth undertaking although thats a broad conception. I've never been able to grasp at fly's so to speak, words disappear. If you make the argument that the Bible is food for the soul then I would argue a lot of things are, I spend a lot of time in academia which is Godless and it's probably established me more so than anything in my adult life. At present God is acting a bit like a psychiatrist in my life, and it is a genuine mixture of east and west religion culminating in this. Yeah! though, maybe it is a/the spirit? I don't see the spirit as exclusive though?
DIAMONDfire: Anyway, I still think God is a stone and that God is 'not-knowable' as is sometimes claimed but, like I said I came in through the back door so I don't have a problem with imagination. Whether or not this is a generational thing or a personal thing I think it's both, maybe it's just a difference in people's psychology? The range of God 'worship' goes naturally from passiveness to activeness.
That Jesus would die for the sins of all mankind means a kind of catharsis, and healing is the highest work in life. But this is concerned with the lineage of the patriarchs, so that Spirit is God, and that is where the spirit is meant to be. Christians and (Jews) identify with this spirit, but I think the spirit is non-exclusive and that all people(s) have spirit. That is the understanding I have come to, that spirit is free.
So God is a stone is a real sense because given that a 'spiritual practice' is undertaken one is able to experience God. What differentiates experience of God is Man. This seems to be the difference between East and West spiritual understanding, one is passive and one is active. My assumption is God is a stone and for all meaning simply because God is hard to understand, and realistically God is a hugely contested sphere of life.
Zanjan: “the idea is to pass into eternity, and die as I understand it.”
You seem to be talking about two stages, one coming after the other. We're actually living our eternity right now, this very minute.
Since only the physical body dies, the soul is untouched; it passes into the Hereafter *as is* – meaning, in the same condition as it was on this earthly plane of existence. That state depends on the quality of the individual’s relationship with God.
The highest state is to have died to one’s own self before the physical body dies. If one has accomplished this goal, then they’re living in God prior to passing on to the next world. Spiritual death will never visit them.
“I don't see the spirit as exclusive though?”
Assuming you mean the Holy Spirit, this is a power which emanates from God’s Revelator - also known as the “breath of life”. It may or many not visit an individual. God knows what’s in the hearts.
After the midway point of a Revelator’s dispensation, the Holy Spirit begins to fade and becomes hidden. Believers fall asleep; consequently, faith dies out everywhere.
That's a normal seasonal spiritual cycle, one Jesus described well. The Holy Spirit will not be seen again until God sends another Revelator. He brings it but once the awakening occurs, the bystander needs to respond to that.
Zanjan: “I still think God is a stone”
If you’re using “stone” as a metaphor, I don’t see how it can work. Any stone is penetrable but to do that, you have to break it. Who has broken God? Who has even defaced God?
God is unknowable – only His essence is; and when you don’t know something what can you do to it?
God wanted to be loved – how can you love someone you don’t know?
To some, God’s wisdom is inscrutable but the puzzled faithful will look to the end of things where they’ll find it. Failing that, be patient until events play out and the solution becomes obvious.
DIAMONDfire: Whether it's a stone as in something immovable which is how I conceive it, or a stone which acts as a doorstop to allow people in, to eternity or nirvana. This is how I conceive it, God is a stone. You're right about we are living in heaven right now as far as that is, because God is all form and formless, however knowledge is not to be worshiped. And I may be disliked for this but I don't understand how a rich man would need God? A rich man needs education and common sense.
God lives in the needy, poor and frail. And the reason that so many of them don't understand this is because of the perversions of stronger men.
They don't need God, was what Jesus said.
Zanjan: "a stone as in something immovable ......."
We can't move a stone?
When I was young, I watched whole mountain being removed - it was a big one, nestled in the Rockies but located outside the National Park. I loved it's towering multicolored face, gleaming in the sunlight. Alas, people wanted coal and decorative rock. In 5 years, the whole thing was gone. There's just a big gap.
"a stone which acts as a doorstop to allow people in, to eternity or nirvana."
Seems to me, if it acted like a doorstop, why bother with a door? Somebody has got to decide when to open and close.
"A rich man needs education and common sense. "
Then what does a poor man need? Shouldn't he have something he can take with him too?
Personally, I wouldn't call perverted men "strong". They've capitulated to their impulses so, nature has got the best of them.
DIAMONDfire: Stone is meant in this instance as an abstraction, why are abstractions so hard, I'll never know?
When bad things happen in nature or with people, that's exactly when God is present or comes to intervene. That's what God is, hope.
It's not to be toyed with, God is a powerful source. What is the one of the oldest concepts related to God, fear God. and for good reason. He is a deliverer.
I guess a poor man needs charity the most, so he can begin to put his life back together.
A rich man needs to master Fatherhood.
Evil is strong.
DIAMONDfire: And in reply to the mountain that was demolished, it's exactly my point. Only God could say if it was meant to stay or go? We don't know the answers to these questions.
Zanjan: If God had meant the mountain to go, it wouldn't have been there in the first place. Unlike humans, He doesn't change His mind.
As for opening and closing things, scriptures shed some brighter light on that:
"The Great Being saith: The Word is the master key for the whole world, inasmuch as through its potency the doors of the hearts of men, which in reality are the doors of heaven, are unlocked."
If God had wanted to close that door, He wouldn't have uttered another Word. Some people think He didn't; in reality, they've slammed their own door shut - some don't want to know what's on the other side.
I'm not sure why you think a poor man's life is broken. He might need charity on occasion but he doesn't have to rely on it. Many of the poor have dignity - they don't want others to know when they're in dire straights so they don't speak of it. They believe God will provide because He always has.
Evil is a vacuum and nature hates it.
DIAMONDfire: God is all form and formless, Indian philosophy more transcendental is what I adhere to.
Although the mountain is important it's not the focus of importance, humans' are natural alchemists and destruction must come, We need to master it!
The Word of God as I see it is essentially a psychological issue, again the pathway to the heart but not to be worshiped. Don't you ever get the feeling that when you have bathed in God's Word or presence that it sets you back each time, and then you need to rest from it and get on with life? It's hard to live this way, knowledge is always self seeking the scriptures always remain in a certain place in you heart or mind but what is it?? Transcendentalism is always open and free and death is your final release. How can we die knowing what God wants?
In the modern context science is said to be the diffuse of this problem. Maybe it creates more?
I admit I am hopeless at pedagogy I hope this is making sense! I'll push on.
There is a difference in philosophical religious systems here, Is the goal the same??
One thing that I think is agreed on is ego always seeks an inward path to the detriment of the host, so spirituality is concerned with opening this trap door. I still question how one can assert one's knowledge within the confidence of God? Scriptures are deeply spiritual but life is spiritual too, and these were handed down long ago, the ego has never altered. In fact in a twisted sense it's proof that God is within, but never ever practical.
Didn't Jesus say that evil was created to be a footstool?
Zanjan: "Don't you ever get the feeling that when you have bathed in God's Word or presence that it sets you back each time, and then you need to rest from it and get on with life?"
I've gotten burnout from working too hard too often, and spending too much time around demanding people. Yet difficult things drive me to take refuge in the Word of God; it's an umbrella over me when it rains.
He's my sanctuary, my protector, my companion, my love, my very life. How could I take a step back from breathing?
"How can we die knowing what God wants? "
When you love someone, you'll know what to do.
"Is the goal the same??"
Each religion of God has a theme - a lesson to be taught to mankind for that Age. Teaching and modeling that should be the objective yet underpinning all of it is a desire to draw nearer to God. Whatever lifts the spirits, refines the souls, and contributes to prosperity and happiness, God approves of that.
"Didn't Jesus say that evil was created to be a footstool? "
Not that I know of. The earth is God's footstool.
DIAMONDfire: By my calculations God is the stone which the young David hurled at Goliath.
I don't mean to say a spiritual system is not complete and perfect, God is omniscient. But if there are perfect systems of knowledge, let's take the Bible. God must be located at some point in a spiritual degree within that system. He must be, or it wouldn't be complete.
This is to say no one is really claiming God as God today, we are wrapped up in our failures.
Zanjan: “God is the stone which the young David hurled at Goliath.”
Interesting takeaway. Most people don’t parse that narrative. Since you mentioned it, the thought ought to be completed, yes?
Note that young David had prepared for battle by stuffing his pouch with 5 smooth stones he’d got from a nearby brook. Yet he only needed one of them to bring down Goliath. What about the remaining four?
Let’s do a complete *head* count in order:
Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad = 5
Of course, you know the stone only brought Goliath down – it didn’t kill him. Young David finished the job by taking Goliath’s own sword to cut off his head. Later, a Priest collected the sword and gave it to David as a trophy. David noted it was a mighty sword, the most excellent kind. The story wasn’t over; the Israelites continued to battle the Philistines until the Persian empire erased Philistia.
I agree that each Revelation was complete, as it was delivered to the people of the day. For them, their Revelator was the last One – that is, the most recent One. We know this due to their prophecies of the appearance of another One in future plus the prophecy of the end of the world.
Meanwhile, Muslims have said their Revelator, Muhammad, is not only the last One, but the final One. Consequently, they, along with the compatriots of the old guard, must also be waiting for the end of the world.
How is it the end of the world, as they knew it, actually happened but they were unaware? Had God not repeatedly given them all the information they needed?
“we are wrapped up in our failures”
Agreed. That’s certainly a historical reality.
DIAMONDfire: It was the freedom abandon and innocence that David embodied that was most remarkable about that victory. He became revered for it.
Nietzsche said, God is dead! Something which I regard strongly and I theorise its the 'split blood' that's so easily done in relation to modernity. But on reflection this might not be it. The 'unforgivable sin' has been recorded in the Christian Bible for 2000 years, and it embodies something of the 'spilling of the blood' could be any number of crimes that don't easily resolve.
So was Nietzsche right to say God is Dead on this premise. Taking note I think he was referring to valour.
The movement toward modernisation meant a critical reflection, the 'self' was behold like it never had been in history. For me this process in this social context indicates the first stirrings of 'mental illness' as we know it and 'mass psychosis.'
So is it 'the unforgivable sin' or modernity with its exclusive focus on the self?
David overcame this which was in his nature, the stone he threw resembles the grace of God.
A sacred source.
Zanjan: “The 'unforgivable sin' has been recorded in the Christian Bible for 2000 years……”
I don’t think it’s the “spilling of blood” – that’s only breaking a commandment, which can be forgiven under certain circumstances. Forgiveness, however, doesn’t imply forgetfulness.
The younger David was a pure soul. Samuel, the lesser Prophet of the House of Israel, anointed him as a lad because God told him to do it. This was long before his battles. God chose David because he kept the Covenant. This is the key point.
Perhaps you were thinking of the next time he was anointed – that was by the tribal elders because he’d never lost a battle. Courage is remarkable but many had that; they were impressed by his success.
Goliath, on the other hand, had reportedly been mocking God. The Philistines were pagans but not the sort who actually believed God existed. They’d become corrupt. Young David stepped in to help his king.
We’re shown how disbelief in God is totally the worst. More recent scriptures have confirmed that the only thing God won’t forgive is disbelief in Himself.
We know that, as a grown man and king, David broke two more commandments. David suffered the consequences after Samuel informed him of God’s wrath. Since David never stopped believing, he was willing to admit his mistakes and face the music; ergo, God’s vengeance became God’s justice – something to be highly respected.
“the stone he threw resembles the grace of God.”
Not to the Philistines. For believers, there’s something stronger than grace.
As Psalm 44:3 says, “It was not by their sword that they won the land, nor did their arm bring them victory; it was your right hand, your arm, and the light of your face, for you loved them.”
David will always be remembered as one who had a permanent stain on his soul from giving way to temptation, not pure enough to build the temple of God. Yet he’d kept the Covenant, loving God, so his soul was saved.
Zanjan: “So was Nietzsche right to say God is Dead on this premise?”
I’m not sure what Nietzsche had in mind; given his bold contempt for the church, I’d wager he was referring to the death of faith. Anyone could have pronounced that, provided they were a principled person. Society had been asleep at the wheel for centuries – long enough to give insanity room to spread.
Whereas, Nietzsche lived at a time when the divine spirit was stirring a new awakening in humanity. I reckon he was observing a sharp contrast. How, otherwise, could his contemporaries have considered his views to be novel?
The word "modernity" can be used for any moment in which we're speaking; a better approach is to address the present condition of society. Currently, it's perverted and debased due to long standing selfishness; however, it's showing generational signs of positive advancement IF you know where to look.
We long for the time when we don't have to hunt it down. It gets easier every decade.
DIAMONDfire: Does God consciousness, indicate the knowledge and experience of God? We are always conscious so long as living, the fact is this phenomenon can't be proven one way or the other, so this observation supports the theory that God is a rock. In other words there is a way in and there is a way out, but a rock can't be known which is the most important thing, because spirit cuts out, we die and part from this world. As much as a rock is a plain object it stands for all of the theoretical information we have of God and his way. Yet in the same instance the rock is enough to free you from attachment, dependency. It is the perfect spiritual symbolism, the stone is unbreakable in human respects, and if it is broken a major sin has occurred. This is the most basic understanding of the most difficult issues to apprehend, words float around and weave in and out of wherever and rest finally in unknown places, whereas the stone is the perfect metaphor, it serves to capture all that is known of God in one simple example.
A little sermon like but it makes so much sense, everything in life in the sense of living it heads further and further into simplicity.
A stroke of mysticism.
Zanjan: Well, I'm not one who needs to wrap everything up into a tiny spit ball and call it easy. I don't mind complexity - simplicity is superficial understanding, ignoring the most exciting discoveries that can only come from rolling up one's sleeves and doing a deep dive. God is both hidden and manifest. I like to glean something of both; so, one has to pursue that fearlessly.
Do we really need a metaphor for God, Himself? He's incomprehensible. Choosing a metaphor implies we understand what we're representing that can't be conveyed by using common language. Scriptures use the language of one world to teach things about another world.
Right now, society is out of touch with the world of God. It's not receptive to the signs of God. The power of the Holy Spirit doesn't exist in the human world - only in the world of God. We have to live in that realm to know and benefit from that power.
DIAMONDfire: My argument is that to prove the existence of God you must release God from your consciousness and allow Him to Be. If it is possible to prove in the first place, how can this be done when you are attaching to words that have been written on a page? This strikes me as very dangerous in fact, in that world would you liken it to children running around a playground constantly asserting they are right and they hold the keys to life? How is life meant to exist in a circumstance such as this? No one would ever be wrong, an impossible scenario. How can God exist in a way such as this? It defies reason, that which makes us human and thinking beings.
Now this is a very pertinent question, why has mysticism been targeted to a point unrecognisable over the last few centuries? Is it not in the name of gross hypocrisy and at root malice? Because others are different and that is not enough, for them. This is an attack on the person, but I don't intent to dwell on that, life happens.
If God is a stone everything makes sense, you can take it and you can leave it. It was designed to be this way, it is natural. There will never be a person who doesn't apply themselves to understanding who will ever make a dent on the world of wisdom, and we are fortunate enough to live in a world where this is keenly possible. But just imagine what that person would look like who took God to be a stone, and applied himself to life in such a way. How beautiful that person would be? So in this sense the power of mysticism proves God's existence, and it should be allowed to be if not for its pure freedom.
Zanjan: “My argument is that to prove the existence of God you must release God from your consciousness and allow Him to Be.”
Seems like you’re saying what I’d already said: God is inconceivable – ergo, the moment you form an image of God in your mind, that’s not God. However, we can recognize the SIGNS of God. Do we need to prove this to others? What about just listing a few?
“No one would ever be wrong, an impossible scenario. How can God exist in a way such as this?”
Firstly, God’s existence doesn’t depend on anything. Secondly, those in the heavenly concourse all agree – none are wrong. Yet they each have their own things to do.
“….children running around a playground constantly asserting they are right and they hold the keys to life??
The above scenario is true. Who says 'Yeah, I think I'll choose the wrong way'? Or, 'I want to believe the wrong thing'.
The heart of man is like a mirror which *potentially* reflects the divine attributes of God. Young children have no mental blocks set between themselves and God. They were born innocent and pure; it’s only later they can become corrupted.
When one is immature, they can appear wrong and be inappropriate or tasteless and insufficient (the need to say I am right) but the flesh is always there so when they mature, they’re right. They’ve been right all along.