Proof of God's Existence: Yes or No? (Page 2)

Zanjan: “why has mysticism been targeted to a point unrecognisable over the last few centuries?”

I reckon it’s partly due to misunderstanding; most people don’t know what it really is. The clergy may respond, ‘ We’ll stick with what’s for everybody, what the book says.’ Understandably, they won’t approve a group of only mystics.

The rest is the work of scammers and quacks, who are pleased to take advantage of the resulting ignorance because the clergy have refused to touch the subject.

DIAMONDfire: Take the question - is God in Man in other words - is Man a God?

Most religions would have an affirmative on this, and technically it might be true. At the same time however it raises the question - how is Man meant to know God? Or is he? I'm uncertain myself as to whether Man is a God? Technically, yes is the answer, but how so?

If you are to say - Man is a God (meaning God is factually everything that exists), then you could say that God is a stone and it would be equally true. The difference being that a Man or a Woman could release themselves from dependency on this stone and therefore on God. I tend to think this is a better way, consider all of the actions a person does throughout a lifetime that symbolise in a deep sense to them and others God: (we live by these meanings) saying something important, eating something sacred, wearing something or an action that has a special meaning. This is how humans' communicate, humans' transcend in this way, we make meaning this way and my broad argument is that when you collude this process you get stagnation.

Maybe that's a bit psychological but at least in Eastern religions the psychological realm is far more important (to God). And there is a difference in people too, I would say the spirit is essentially the same! To say you can experience sameness with God seems to be a contradiction of a problematic nature, I propose you need something to intervene for you to experience God, like a guru. If Jesus classifies as a Guru then this would be adequate but if it means the experience of eternity and God as a default, then I question it.

Zanjan: “Take the question - is God in Man in other words - is Man a God?”

I don’t see how this can be problematic as long as one incorporates natural logic in their thinking. What Being was doing the creating before man was created?

While we express a creative power ( a divine gift), the human mind is finite; it doesn’t have the ability to create suns, planets and life. Therefore, the human is subject to whatever or whoever is greater.

The greater would be God AND His divine Messengers. Humans are dependent on the Messengers to kick start their souls into love and service, advancing the intellect, and to refine believers until their nobility is manifested. They bring about a transformation in the individual and in society – that is, lifting the human state into the state of real man.

Only Man can truly recognize and trust his creator. As such, he behaves in a godly manner, meaning with a pure spirit and integrity of character. This soul is a mirror, made to reflect the divine attributes (spiritual virtues). We’re constantly having to polish our mirrors; a few stubborn smudges and dust particles are always present. Not so for God’s Revelators – Their Mirrors are perfect.

Those who haven’t reached their potential will sometimes play at being God ( making unilateral decisions) and sometimes a Messiah (claims of perfection); but, they fail those who’ve trusted them.

It’s not God inside Man, since God can’t be contained - it’s God’s *signs* in Man.

Since God created us this way, we can never release ourselves from it. Thus, our higher self speaks to our lower self when action is required. Which advice one takes is the individual’s own choice. Some call this free will; I can’t say it’s freedom until the individual’s tethers to the world have been cut.

We’re like a candle; the candle can’t light itself. So yes, we need a flawless Mediator to kindle that light. THEN we become His stronghold.

DIAMONDfire: Natural logic seems to me to be a human intellectual construct, I think this ultimately ties you in a knot.

Freedom is a hard concept to understand is there logic in freedom? The Word of God is just that it is words on a page, I am not an unbeliever in miracles or manifestations of God but I don't know where the Word of God releases you? I think to be fully a God adherent one needs to become detached and free, say if you sort of feed off the Word of God and then go off and do something is that freedom? You keep coming back to the Word of God because you believe it is the source of God and Life. Is this freedom, I tend to think one must walk away ultimately and not look back, to have no ties to 'God' not to deny him but to be a Man or Woman. That the ultimate power is in being a Man or Woman, that that is where the miracle source really exists.

Biblically I take the stance that God is an avenger, not so much a lover of peace. I think there is danger in worshiping God, (the middle eastern Gods). And it seems to me it might be the closeness that is taken in these religions that make God dangerous in this way, Remember if you touch the inner sanctum of God you disintegrate. To me this corresponds to sin the nature of sin in the world, to me the inner most part is about sin. And you can't worship that!

So I side with Peter and deny Christ in this respect, I think Paul with his murderous nature might have perverted the gospel? The rock makes more sense to me..

Zanjan: “Freedom is a hard concept to understand is there logic in freedom? “

Yes. There are different kinds of freedom; for the most part, they don’t involve pure liberty because everything is subject to rule of law. Laws exist to create and preserve order.

Liberty abandons law and responsibility so, if one wishes to have that, there’s only a very small sphere where this kind of freedom is possible without experiencing reckless disaster.
For example, you’re at liberty to cut your own hair any way you wish. Logic dictates you use a pair of scissors, razor or clippers, not a sharp rock. Wisdom dictates that you’re already a certified hairstylist.

True freedom is a release from the prison of self. The slave has desired freedom but must wait until it’s bestowed. The majority of people have become slaves to materialism; they’re caught up in worldly things and matters which bring them disappointment, anger, and misery. Nevertheless, they’ve become too attached to those things to separate themselves.

“I don't know where the Word of God releases you?”

The divine remedy is to let go of all those attachments. Let God capture and cleanse our hearts, making us fit to occupy that hallowed spot. This means a turn around, no longer slaves to the world but slaves to God, where there is only love, light, justice, happiness etc .

If I’m having a bad day, I’ll feel grumpy and put out; negative emotions and thoughts are in the wings but I won’t give them center stage. I go to prayer and reading the Word of God. That immediately releases my soul from everything dark; I’m unburdened, free and happy again.

Zanjan: “say if you sort of feed off the Word of God and then go off and do something is that freedom?”

Depends on what action you’re taking. The Revelation is the greatest gift to mankind – when you’ve received it, you must give it to others, not through compulsion but through your utterance. If you don’t do this, you can’t learn, grow and develop further.

You enter the faith as a student with the aim of becoming a teacher; if you keep everything to yourself, not only do you truncate your own education but you can‘t be of any assistance to the struggling ones. You’d be living in a cave how much room do you have to move around?

Zanjan: "Biblically I take the stance that God is an avenger, not so much a lover of peace."

Mankind wasn't mature enough to establish peace amongst nations for any significant length of time. Why blame God for that?

When God is avenging, He's going after the unjust, who well deserve whatever He does to them. Whatever that is, it's way better than anything we can come up with. That's why we aren't supposed to do the avenging. We're just not that smart.

"I think there is danger in worshiping God,"

How do you know that it's actually GOD they're worshiping? Being a member of a religion certainly isn't proof of that. Conversely, not being a member isn't proof either. I don't know how you can divide a religion by personalities. The personages you speak of weren't pitted against each other.

DIAMONDfire: The God of the bible is said to have a personality, but it raises an interesting point, does Man have a personality issue. All of psychology would affirm yes man is indeed tempered by personality and broadly there are four types in concordance with the natural elements. It is critical that a persons' devotion to God is favourable. So he or she must worship through his or her personality. This is an important aspect to knowing God, having spiritual means.

But take the act of meditation for instance, some say it is impersonal and others say it is personal meaning God active. Overall meditation gets deeper the more it is practiced, whether it's a reflection of a personality or an inner sanctum. It gets deeper and I would say more conducive to health physical and mental. To Hindu's Buddha is an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but Buddha who is as religiously enshrined, has said leave the scriptures and free your self, to life; that forgetting what is written on the page is part of the mystery of God.

Now I don't intend to come in-between a person's spiritual understanding and themselves, and God. Or if they worship the impersonal, including atheists. Atheism is self-assertive, not that far from the idea of God, but appreciate the controversy God practically brings to the world, why flog a dead horse? As I see it there is too much ego in believing hard and fast interpretative depictions of God in the heavenly realm, but I am not about to intervene.

Spiritual freedom is an assertion of peace, how much would be given back to those in need in a climate of spiritual freedom? It would be like God on earth, the God intention.

DIAMONDfire: This is the reason why I think God would be more favourable to humble being who chose to worship a stone.

Zanjan: Personality is inherited via a combination of genes. We can’t change that but it can become clouded. This is true for all animals and man; some say even plants if you understand that consciousness is at a primitive level. Therefore, we can't say God has a personality - He's not a person, He's the Most Great Being.

Character, on the other hand, is developed, being built through education and experience. We each have the potential to acquire beautiful traits called spiritual virtues; as we acquire a degree of each one, they become embedded in our soul. These are our adornments, our divine robes.

God has His own character traits; since He is the Origin, He always had them to perfection. As such, He doesn’t change His ways. Ergo, we pattern ourselves after those traits, which is what we worship.

We worship Him through our heart and mind, commensurate with our understanding, love and commitment. There are numerous forms of meditation but the kind God wants us to do is ponder His words and be guided by them in all our decisions.

Zanjan: "As I see it there is too much ego in believing hard and fast interpretative depictions of God in the heavenly realm,"

I agree. One has to get rid of their attachments to tradition and personal opinion; this isn't easy so it doesn't have to be done overnight. It's a weaning process. How long it takes depends on who you're letting get the upper hand in your deliberations - your higher self or your lower self.

"how much would be given back to those in need in a climate of spiritual freedom? "

You've reminded me of the current earth crisis - we've overstepped the boundaries of healthy living and wise stewardship of the planet. We're standing on the very edge of the cliff, 60 seconds from falling off.

We should have bowed down and humbly worshiped the earth as much as God because it has provided everything for us.

People ask, why don't we just fix climate change? We have the means if we want to. Well, for a start, you have to get people to want to - citizens, the governments, and nations.

We're all interconnected. If I may borrow from David Suzuki:
"We live in a web of relationships. Like a spiders web, if you pull on just one string, the whole web vibrates and becomes unstable."

We have to work on many different things at once, immediately, to pull off a turn around. In a climate of spiritual freedom, we arise and contribute to the betterment of society and the world. When we're willing to give up our lives for that, nothing could stop us.

DIAMONDfire: Soul is very similar to personality for a human being, Christianity says the soul is saved. I take a liberal view on this not so much a letter of the law one. But lets call it personality, it is the area of life wherein the miracle resides and I agree that God would have a personality and that we emulate this source. If you blow it up and use a word like supersoul you can begin to form a picture in your mind of heaven or the heavenly realms. It is why morality and law is so important in that it is framed around the most vulnerable, and in need. The soul is sensitive to the working of people and I think this extends to the earth and animals.

Can humans' control the environment via spiritual means?

The oldest societies of people's lived for many thousand years before white civilisation, how did they do it? It was their ability to live on the earth without interceding in natural occurrences, and it was their spirituality. Contrast the Bibile and it's distinctive end. Should it be taken literally ie. should we be considering end things? Or should it be seen as a curse and one fundamentally related to life and wisdom? We will bring about our end if we are not wise, destruction is a force.

One of the concepts that has made the most sense to me is 'the middle way' concept I think derived from Asian thought. Science was our attempt to conquer nature, it is a very delicate thing (science) and I would probably argue has turned on us. When you see wars literally ended via acts of sacrifice that cross all sense of humanity, like a 'burning monk' you realise that God's personality is the dominant rule, and that we like children run which way ever and never really know what it means to be liberated.

DIAMONDfire: It is wise to be aware of the 'moth to a flame' problem..

Zanjan: “Christianity says the soul is saved”

The soul continues to exist forever – that doesn’t mean saved. There’s no automatic salvation. You can join a religion and believe and do good things but still not be saved. There’s a key to Paradise. God decides who's worthy to enter.

Zanjan: “Can humans' control the environment via spiritual means?”

Absolutely! On the small scale, there’s a natural inclination for individuals to gravitate towards their own people. The term “Like seeks like” is a powerful, invisible force – a kind of Will power. The moth to the flame you speak of.

When they find their “kin”, they surround themselves with them. By finding their home, they’ve changed both their familial and social relationships. This is their new environment. That can be applied to one’s workplace, recreation, schooling etc. - it’s a lifestyle choice.

On the large scale, there needs to be co-operation between agencies in different domains. For example, science -> government - > the economy - > health care -> education –> culture -> religion. This isn’t an exhaustive list. Just enough to demonstrate how we’re interdependent.

On the global scale, we know that no nation can survive independently. We build and collaborate internationally with world leaders, meeting to consult on the best interests of all nations.
In just ONE generation, we’ve changed every environment on earth by learning the importance of unity through diversity in tackling all the world’s issues.

Of course, not everyone is on board with this – many are the selfish. But transformation will come through sheer desperate need for it. Who will help the confused and lost?

This takes us to religion, the foundation for social well-being and prosperity. There can’t be just one but there must be oneness of aim and purpose. One God. One Cause of God. Each person championing that is a co-worker.

Therefore, members of all religions must work together to hold faith together. From the grass roots to the very top, religion is the only means we have to open the hearts of the people of the world so they have the Will to agree on making those essential changes. Any group that’s not up to this will disintegrate.

DIAMONDfire: There is some variations on soul, I mean it in an earthly sense like personality the part of you that you relate to others via and others relate to you, also called astral. This part is saved and I suppose it's related to health too. God is tricky still, thought there is a lot of great and profound literature that can help a person achieve health. Is this the gateway to heaven or paradise, maybe that's a mystery I would say. To be one with God. In that case is it a matter of worship? In heaven? I see it as a rest, a home.

Many of the great scholars were atheists and there work is revered, not well understood enough or front and centre enough but revered. They put their heart and soul into creating it and it stands tall in the world. God wasn't the issue in this, it was humanity.

I understand my bias I am not cooperation based, I am philosophy abstract religion based.

Whereas those on the top want to double down, those on the bottom want to let go. Can we celebrate diversity? And live with one another? That will be the test.

DIAMONDfire: The best way to heal is through understanding.

DIAMONDfire: Another way to look at it is to say the stone is inside you, and it will never leave.

Getting towards spiritualism..

Zanjan: I agree there are variations of soul yet all souls are inherently a good creation. Each kind works together to make the world go ‘round, those we can see and those we can’t. We compliment each other. Even our enemies are our friends – when you understand the dynamics, you feel fortunate that you have enemies.

“there is a lot of great and profound literature that can help a person achieve health.”

Well, one has to use caution there because “health” is a matter of perspective. Some have taken what is normal to mean healthy when it's actually a pervasive sickness. I think all those self-help books, however enjoyable and motivating the read, are useless in that there’s no sticking power. It’s like yo yo dieting – good for 2 months.

Still, that one is reading them indicates they’ve recognized their own shortcomings keep trapping them. They don’t want bandaids, they want a permanent fix and don’t know where to turn.

Zanjan: The spiritual journey is stylized for each person, according to their destinies. Sometimes, we don't have much say in that. We've studied this in depth and can pick out certain legs of that journey that all must come to before they can progress further. One must know where to begin and know what the ultimate goal is.

It's very much like mountain climbing, where one has to reach a series of base camps then set a spell to reconnoiter as the parameters of safety have shifted. A window many have closed; a new route must be forged.

But, unlike mountain climbing, the goal and destination aren't the same thing. What do you do when you get there? One can only spend a maximum of 16 hrs. on the summit of Mt. Everest, then they have to return from the death zone. Big whoop.

I'm not sure what philosophy can teach because learning requires correct and consistent application. Once you've learned, there's no going back. I don't care for philosophical debates but do love stories drawn from mankind's cultural experiences to help sort out the mask of myths. Surprisingly, some folk tales have secrets embedded in them, there only for the most perceptive mind.

Zanjan: "the stone is inside you, and it will never leave. "

This is something to ponder. I'm reminded of the occasional references to stones in various scriptures. Seems to me there's several kinds - some porous, some impermeable, some flaky, some hard as granite etc. I think there's a use for all of these traits.

What kind of stone is God?

DIAMONDfire: God as a stone is transcendental, the part that takes you over the ocean of worldly existence. Maybe I am replacing the idea of the stone for the knowledge I have amassed of God? But the idea of the simplicity of the stone is something that I think God would condone. It retains something of the mystery, and gives a mode to act on; there are many ways to learn, what about the illiterate? They will never read the Word of God. I think that if God wanted to be anything on Earth He would have picked a stone because of it's unique symbol, such a simple and accessible item that everyone is familiar with. Metaphor for a teacher's heart, I think the heart would be the ultimate stone, that's a mystery.

As a transcendentalist, the concept of being thankful for your enemies is something not quite right for me, peace in mind and body comes from overcoming worldly existence, in other words your sense attachments and knowing God plays an important role in this problem, obtaining the wisdom to know why? But I tend to think there is evil and as much as it's not nice I think there are evil souls, and the idea for everybody is to transcend this evil, or problem. Not everyone gets the chance you don't know how long you have and people are different but, the idea is to break the cycle of life and death. To manifestly deal with your own karma. The answers come when you have peace. Meditating will help along with any other reliable spiritual practice. In fact the path is well trodden, to climb above the evils and enemies requires you to put yourself first which is not easy. This doesn't mean you hate your enemies, it just means that you have transcended that particular issue and attained closer to your goal. But life is harsh and believing that it isn't and God is perfection personified only can take you closer to the brink. The really hard lessons take years to learn, and may never be learnt. Being lucky for instance.

Zanjan: “Maybe I am replacing the idea of the stone for the knowledge I have amassed of God?”

This could well be. It should be a white stone and smooth. Scriptures say when you reach a certain point in your spiritual journey, God will give you a stone. I think it must be tangible, a physical stone to represent the milestone you’ve reached. Seems to me, God would be sure to show you that your experience isn't just your own imagination.

I have some interesting stone stories but I doubt I could condense them to fit a post without losing their oomph.

“what about the illiterate? They will never read the Word of God”

They’ll do what the ancients did – sing songs & chant the Word. It’s the easiest way to remember. These days, one doesn’t have to go far to find a literate person to help.

“I think the heart would be the ultimate stone, that's a mystery.”

Maybe, if it were like a brilliant precious gem stone. People relate the heart to emotion; it's more than that. I’ve always thought of it as the center of one’s constitution. We used to call it one’s “metal”. The power that drives it is spirit. Not just any race horse but a horse that runs with heart is mighty special – it has an indomitable spirit.

God says He has given us everything but has reserved the heart for Himself. The heart is His home. We need to clean it first if we want Him to move in.

Zanjan: Enemies make you look good. They’re showing everybody you’re worth something. You’re important enough to bother with because you have something they want. So, they’re perfectly fine with telling the whole world about you, even if some of it is lies.

In short, your enemies are the first to appreciate you. They’ve recognized you. I’ve won over a few of them. They make the very best friends.

Every good thing is from God; every evil thing is from ourselves. Yes, there are really bad individuals but we don’t have to spend any time with them.

I agree that meditation is very important, not just to arrive at serenity but to focus on scriptures, feeling unhampered and detached, which is the right setting to really ponder their meanings.

DIAMONDfire: God today and perhaps always has had an overwhelming apprehension connected to it, like a phobia and out of my own personal experience I can say talking about God can be the most embarrassing act for young person. Myself included. It's a funny thing that is hard to peg down, why is it so difficult to do? Christians routinely desire to spread the Word and it is one of the hardest things to do, it doesn't seem natural. Why is this?

Perhaps it's because there is no meeting point, no way in for many. The metaphor of the stone and an analogy can be drawn to the 'stone that the builders rejected has become the corner stone,' provides a non-conflictual way in. I'm not sure if it was always a matter of shame? Or doubt? From a learning point of view you listen and respect those who will teach you, a relatively simple matter and I can almost hear a preacher in the background suggesting it is satan disturbing your mind and persuading you off the right path. But why is it embarrassing to talk about God. Why isn't it very interesting to know what you can receive?

Now this isn't a stone but it sounds like the issue is more like an ageing red wine that only gets better with age. The stone however, has an initial vantage point in that it allows a door to be opened that is in fact quite hard to open. A little bit Cabalistic but to me it hits the right mark, of course my understanding is a mixture of East and West and whether it be a stone or a red wine the issue of God never seems to diminish. Its not everything, but given the right formula you can realise your health on such a level that is hard to replicate.