Proof of God's Existence: Yes or No? (Page 3)

Zanjan
Zanjan: Two reasons I can think of to be embarrassed talking about God is 1. if you don’t know your stuff, and 2. If you don’t know how to bring God into the conversation then elevate it from there.

In the first instance, ignorance is embarrassing. This is why there are so many groups of people who openly censure conversations, forbidding mention of religion and politics. What’s left, how to fix cars? BBQ? Those can’t be hotly debated and don’t require abstract thought.

That’s nearly a description of a redneck, yes? They don’t know how to deal with emotional arguments. Then where will they get the peace-making experience? Without it, they can be difficult in the workplace and will likely have marital problems. It’s all about quality of education.

In the second instance, the problem is attempting to spread the Name, not the faith. The aim is wrong. Who says “Have you heard of Jesus? “ Obviously, they’re not embarrassed but you should be embarrassed FOR THEM!

Often, it takes great courage to present spiritual principles because there’s the fear of rejection. Your values might not be similar. You could lose a friend or fail to make one. They could mock you. Some hold that to be more important than faith. Whatever the situation, you don’t want to learn that you sound artificial, right?

Perhaps you don’t see yourself in either of those categories; however, if you don’t know why you’re embarrassed, I think you ought to get to the bottom of that.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “Why isn't it very interesting to know what you can receive?”

Because that’s a carrot. Again, inappropriate approach. Bribery is an act of desperation. The only people who bite are bottom swimmers. The authentic person is by nature a skeptic and won’t be drawn into death cults. They’ll say, “Give me first, THEN we’ll talk”.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to receive the stigma of several hundred years of a bad reputation. I’d rather receive some excellent dialog in a mutually cooperative spirit. I'd love to see faith restored.

“it sounds like the issue is more like an ageing red wine that only gets better with age.”

It’s always wise to read the caveats. Wine will go bad if it’s been open too long. It has an expiry date – you can drink it past that if it smells and tastes ok but if it doesn’t, it won’t kill you. Otherwise, it’s much better if its fresher. Wine isn’t like whiskey. Most wines will have reached their peak before they’re 50 years old.

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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: ..if you don’t know why you’re embarrassed, I think you ought to get to the bottom of that. (on talking about God)

I think it is that the fuse inside is getting shorter, imagine a society that lives off God's issue and as metaphor has a large well that everyone would take water from. What happens if people go to different places to get their water? Things break down and problems remain. What this also signifies is the breakdown of the family, and the resultant vanity.

Of course we are multi-cultural by definition today, it kind of highlights that we do need to really strike a line across all religions and stop fighting on religious themes of difference. It's always been futile. That is the nature of being human, we all need to learn and grow.

It could also be exemplified by healing or the need to heal, in my case anyways I kind of always thought the world should function perfectly and I would sort of just watch, all this happen and that would be the way things work? Now this may be dysfunctional but it could also signify a simpler heart that might be described as monastical. You just want peace in a sense and you feel you have a right to it, for no particular reason you just feel this way. And you don't want to get involved in arguments and politics you just want peace. The problem then becomes do you have a right to it?

It is a very good question to ponder, I do think though that as one gets older one comes closer to God and this is a natural process. When you're young sometimes a lot of weight falls on you and you don't know why? But how could you know why? The master craftsman is honing his craft, and you've got to stay in it to finally see the eventual outcome.

Do you think God meant it to be this way? That this issue would be about naivety, or that we are more so a collective body that must find common grounds to function on?

I suppose that's where the well comes into it.
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: The stone that David threw in his youth, is the penultimate metaphor for the challenge. Rising against oppressors with nothing but ourselves to count on.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Actually, I don’t think anyone has the right to peace – peace is something one has to work for. It doesn’t mean serenity, but bringing minds and spirits together. One has to be a peacemaker to achieve peace. Of course, you can be happy if someone else was the peacemaker – you can share the joy. You can dance with them in spirit.

Perhaps you meant contentment? I don’t think it’s possible for one to be truly happy or at peace without it.

“Do you think God meant it to be this way?”

Sure, why not? If you start young enough you’ll mellow out sooner. When I was young, many things bothered me because I didn’t know how to pick my battles. Also, I spread myself too thin, trying to save the world.

One day, I was sitting outside during a grasshopper plague. The ground was covered with them; they were throwing themselves at the wall, bashing their heads in. They simply didn't look where they were going. The birds had plenty to eat. One bird just walked around looking a them. I thought to myself, ‘PICK one already! You could starve to death that way’.

Shortly, I realized what the bird was doing. The bird found what it was looking for – the most lively, highest jumping grasshopper, and chased it all over the road, stepping over hundreds of hopping others as if they didn’t exist. It was funny but soon I thought there must be a reason. Why? Is it that this kind tastes better? Did the bird have nothing better to do?

Well, here’s what I took away from that: there are many important things to do but only the MOST important thing matters. Forget all else and work with that. Don’t let the worldly static distract you. Do one thing with all your heart, mind, and soul – there’s nothing more rewarding.

(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Oddly, I see the David & stone scenario differently.

I think David was a good strategist; if you're going to war, figure out the opponent's main weakness and hit it. One must be stealthy and patient, and not raise suspicion - the opponent must feel confident there's no real threat. Goliath was a mountain - what can a little rock do?

David knew that one small flaw can take down a giant. He had faith in that principle. To wit: Al Capone's taxes, the sex scandals of powerful men in high places who thought their defenses were impenetrable.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: There’s something most people never mention. When David accepted Goliath’s challenge, he knew in advance he would defeat him. He was absolutely confident he would show them God’s power is real. So, he went to the river and picked 5 stones. Why was the number 5 important enough to record it? All he needed was one of them to do the job.

What appears to be a physical attack, may not have been at all. Consider David's announcement before commencing:

“All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”

Could it be that lobbing a single truth, exactly the right truth, is totally devastating to those who mock God?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: Its very interesting how differing people see different things in this case concerning the bible, when I see the bible nowadays I see nothing other than the rock.

I used to use it in an oracular sense but I have left it now, and prefer the Vedas. And what I know to be universal in truth.

Not sure if I agree with the notion that no one has a right to peace, in my view it is the very reasoning of God. This doesn't mean becoming one with God but that, that is God's intention as a powerful God. But I do agree this requires strategy, but with strategy everyone just like looking at the bible has a differing view. So it would probably be more accurate to say what we a fighting for is the right to rule.

The problem I have with the bible is it's a blood law, it's settled by blood. So it doesn't really match up with my idea of God. Whether it's valid or not? it's another's view and it is no more or less different in this sense. Maybe it's expired? The view and feeling of meaning? Basically it's orphans and widows that resonate at all with me.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “So it would probably be more accurate to say what we a fighting for is the right to rule.”

That has certainly been be the aim of many humans; yes, particularly with adherents of religions well past their expiry date. Once the spirit was lost, they forgot faith isn’t a weapon of destruction.

You’re right about the Bible and the blood flow. However detestable, remember the narrative recounts the condition of the people when mankind was at an immature stage of development. Everybody knows children can be very cruel and fickle since they have a poor sense of justice; ergo, one needs to speak to them in their own language. One had to strike the fear of God into their hearts to establish order.

A deep dive into scriptures informs us that ruling over others was never God’s intention for us. His Revelation disclosed the reality of our creation – that one’s higher self should rule over one’s lower self, the ego. This is the only way to live the good life as stoic civilized beings.

Yet if this were a divine right, it seems to me God would have given it to us automatically.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I think of rulership as a *human* right, defined as something that belongs to us but we don’t necessarily possess it. In modern times, we can never keep that privilege at someone else’s expense; sometimes, we have to give up a right to avoid disaster.

Historically, the leaders and rulers of society have made the people serve them; however, today, the world is facing a deadly serious planetary crisis as a consequence of that disregard. The ancients never had to deal with that so old ways must go.

There has to be a major turn around right smartly where, instead, the rulers and leaders serve the people. Without that, there can be no trust. This is a fact.

Who, then, can change perspective? What will change perspective? Whenever God has spoken again, have we not always responded to Him? Was that because we were finally ready to listen and follow?

(Edited by Zanjan)
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: Maybe authorities need to be more like the Magician, to trick a person into a 'good will' through a benevolent act? In old times when the King gave the Kingdom was secure, I think the same principle applies nowadays.

It's hard to change perspective when your staring downhill, Nietzsche wanted men to be more of men, as in harder and more righteous. When you know the world, a bit daring is something that goes a long way, but comes with risks. Strategy involves daring, at the end of the day especially if you take a Christian view it's men's blood that will win. Not excluding woman in any way either, they are foundational. But Christ has asked us quite politely to lay down our lives for God, that's why I hold peace as the ultimate aim. You just find more about peace in other religions than Christianity.

Self-revelation may be a factor in the discord? People telling themselves what is right and believing it with the conviction of God. Another reason why I don't believe Man can contact God. A man needs to remain in awe of God, not to become Worshiped like Him. Another thing it might be is our heavy reliance on Roman values, on sport and youth. Only an idiot would suggest a young person has more wisdom than his elders, we suffer from the backwards curse. We need to get back to reason as the mark of humaneness, order and intelligence.

Or we'll all throw our hands up in the air and declare it's not our fault!
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: It will change when men start to believe God IS Man.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: I’m not at all disagreeing with what you’ve said. I think, though, the reason there’s not much talk about peace in ancient religions is because the people weren’t up to maintaining it once it was achieved.

Even during periods where there was an integrated population and political truce for a couple hundred years, we find, as Ghandi said, “peace isn’t merely an absence of conflict, it’s the ability to cope with it”.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: In a world where values differ so greatly they’re opposed to each other, everyone will invent their own morality. That’s bound to clash among friends and family, in particular, with foreign cultures. On the one hand, a throng has drifted way from the divine; on the other, a contingent is drawing nearer to God. The separation is increasingly stretched.

How can these diverse groups be knit together to achieve cooperation? If it's done by force, that's slavery; slaves plot to rise up against their master or escape and disperse into hiding. That's not freedom in any sense of the word for either of them.

There's a better way – if they all have the same object of interest, their spirits can revolve around that. The gravity of the same love is the unifying force that makes them strong, patient and forbearing, overlooking each other's faults. Then things can get done free from distractions.

In that sphere we see how godly men can be.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: It's impossible to speak for all, I think I have a philosophical and literary interpretation of the bible at least and an amalgamated spiritual system. A part of me has always wanted to be a teacher too. But one thing that has baffled me is the loss of systems of meaning, perhaps that's a bit personal I've always been peering out.

The world is a dark place, and there is heaps of (blind) competitiveness. Spirit is a precious source really, those who have it spend all of their time protecting it and those who don't are always fighting. Where are the role models we need so much, we've forgotten about being for being, the one thing a good spirituality gives you is an appreciation of how evil or mistakes occur, yet we live in a world that engineers this. It's important to understand, understanding only comes with time, and liberty.

I think to solve the problems of the world you have to adopt 'a mustard seed' approach, part of us has to become a teacher, for the purpose of life. That's the miracle part the part that only a strong God and spiritual understanding can achieve. But those who have knowledge, even unbelievers should be able to make their contribution. Because whatever way you look at it life is a well trodden journey and all people have inherent gifts.

So much conflict where do you begin? Everyone seems out for themselves, I think it's good to appeal to reasoning. That takes learning.
(Edited by DIAMONDfire)
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: Is proof of God intuitive? A sense that you know? But absolute in form when matured?

Does it matter how this is expressed? Or felt?

Does God transcend human thought?

Omniscient? Omnipresent?
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Zanjan
Zanjan: First, I'd like to respond to something you'd previously said:

“So much conflict where do you begin? Everyone seems out for themselves”

True, society is dysfunctional because, as you say, an important element is missing from the lives of the majority – spiritual connection and altruistic goals, the latter, having been tainted by age-long feuds. That leaves all subject to ignorance and materialism.

There were times when the flower of civilization was splendid; it was a jewel in the crown of humanity – what happened that it’s not working anymore?

"Religion", writes Bahá'u'lláh, "is the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world, and of tranquillity amongst its peoples.”

This makes one think it’s not society that needs fixing today, it’s religion – the seed and root of human relationships, as you'd pointed out. This isn’t something we can do, else we’d have done it by now. Would it then be reasonable to look at God’s methods in the past? How was humanity quickened and its fortunes rejuvenated?

I think a wise God would ensure the means are given in advance of the particular current needs, considering how long it takes for foreign guidance to spread. New ideas and approaches are floated first – people easily adopt those without knowing their source. Soon, they run into difficulty since those are accompanied by new ethical and moral implications.

A simple life isn’t possible in the everyday world anymore. Modernity, for us, is an industrially advanced civilization where mainstream culture doesn't work. Everything is trending.

We aren’t meant to live in monasteries, especially since they don’t serve the public as they used to a few hundred years ago. Now, they’re just forms of escapism, which won’t ever make one feel complete, thriving and prosperous. Society has limits to its elasticity - something has to give.

I feel that the mounting global environmental crisis is the thing that’s starting to draw people into a world-embracing vision of our responsibilities toward each other. We still need more than wise council on how to proceed.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: "Is proof of God intuitive? A sense that you know?"

Absolutely. There is this gnawing thing built into every one of us that causes one to ask about the divine. It's bred in the bone, making one ponder the world and our own place in it. For some reason, we're prodded to reconsider that during the most trying times. Every teenager asks "Who am I?"

We can't help but feel a force beyond our control pulling or pushing us somewhere. Why must we all identify with and worship something? Why the suffering? How is it that a penetrating gaze discovers the greatest of men have suffered the most?

We've always come to the conclusion there is a God whom we must relate to in some way. Our curiosity compels us to investigate whether or not the God is aloof, busy maintaining the universe, and uninvolved in our personal lives. We want answers, the correct answers. Who do we go to for that if not a flawless Mediator?

"Does God transcend human thought? Omniscient? Omnipresent?"

According to all the Holy Personages who've claimed They're Mediators sent by God, the answer is yes, yes and yes. This information isn't new but it arrives in new language, new wording, and fresh explanations that bring clarity and the truths of reality back to us.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: The Hindu religion says the same thing about religion, that its purpose is for the welfare of the world. It's a nice way to look at it, apart from salvation and sin. Sin is just as much an issue in Hindu religion as it is in Christianity, but the way it is tackled is slightly different slightly more advanced in my understanding. It is needed for the person to transcend one's karma, you learn about the Gods' and the demons', and you transcend that mental object, one's karma and understanding of good and evil. To follow a God or Gods' it means a narrower path, but a path whereon understanding is much simpler. For me this was the clincher, a person fights with self-knowledge and this can be a very painful process and very unending. But being able to believe in the wisdom of the Gods' is mentally liberating, it can't happen immediately and destruction is rife in the world. I know this I've been through destructive phases. But having passed that, to release yourself from the mental burden through faith or devotion, in Hindu terms is very empowering on a personal level. There is something in it something expressly related to health that you wouldn't normally attain.

The world will act the way it is programmed to, with so much advancement I see a major problem is reactions, environmental and human. Or in religious terms, karmic outcomes that must be addressed, or will only snowball into bigger problems.

But faith or devotion is not an automatic achievement, the path unfolds. It is my understanding that in spirituality we should leave the world behind, not factually but spiritually. That repair will come through this approach, in others words the tortoise wins the race.
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: How does one come to a belief in God?

A perfect metaphor is that of 'meditation' sit there and think about nothing!
(Edited by DIAMONDfire)
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DIAMONDfire
DIAMONDfire: No I don't think religion needs fixing, it's been written out very carefully.
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Zanjan
Zanjan: Yes, you can find so many similarities in all these religions; that should be the binding element between peoples of diverse backgrounds and institutions. I think it’s important to understand that Faith requires more than belief. Faith is a call to action and dedicated service to the welfare of all.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “For me this was the clincher, a person fights with self-knowledge and this can be a very painful process and very unending.”

It doesn't make sense it should be that hard. Painful, yes, but not laborious. Personally, I wasn't one for patience, waiting around until hell froze over for something magnificent to happen. I had a restless heart. If you want something badly enough, you'll get it.

I found all I needed to do was see myself the way God sees me. That sounds strangely impossible but God was willing to show me; turns out He’s more accepting than me. My ugly bits meant nothing to Him – they were like a shadow caused by the presence of nobility in my soul, which is what He valued.

I’m reminded of something the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, wrote on that matter:

“The more we search for ourselves, the less likely we are to find ourselves; and the more we search for God, and to serve our fellow-men, the more profoundly will we become acquainted with ourselves, and the more inwardly assured. This is one of the great spiritual laws of life."

It’s not good enough that I find my peace, attaining that goal. Being a human, I always want more - I’d want to attain the presence of God. Should one succeed, it would happen in a flash, not over grueling decades. It’s like an epiphany out of the blue but accompanied by a staggering vision and extraordinary humility. This isn’t the end, it’s the beginning; it’s the first day there is no you.

That profound realization is an evolution of mind and spirit, motivating one to apply themselves in real time in practical ways because selflessness demands it. Loving God and loving humanity must be expressed through service without expectation of personal reward. Service to the greater good is service to God.
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “we should leave the world behind, not factually but spiritually.”

Scriptures say, “the world” signifies all that which isn’t of God. For example, materialism, acquisitiveness, traditions, superstitions, prejudices and hatreds – those attachments are made of dust. They‘re useless. We need to sweep all that aside to save the good things.

Putting it into perspective, we are the first in history to be charged with saving the planet. That can’t be done with one religion or one government. It can only be achieved through unity - something new for humanity to properly learn. From where will come the model?
(Edited by Zanjan)
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Zanjan
Zanjan: “How does one come to a belief in God?”

Good question. Obviously, that depends on the individual’s family background together with age and experience. Overall, I think the tipping point is practically unique to each individual.

In my experience, the most frequently reported situation is when the individual is at a place where he likes to think God exists but can’t be sure if that’s wishful thinking or not ……until, one day, he experiences a terrifying fright. He calls on God, saying, ' If I live through this, I'll know.' The variation is bargaining. He lived. I guess God couldn’t resist the challenge.
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