Proof of God's Existence: Yes or No? (Page 5)

DIAMONDfire: Its a shame there is so much inter-religious conflict in the world today, each religion really does have unique insights to offer. Makes you think though how much of it is human-made, I mean the object is the same really for all, but the method and the means differ, and when you pin that down you realise we are fighting over small things where really we can't afford to.

Does it make us different, probably not. Imagine what the world would be like if we all could achieve a relative health and harmony. It would be a beautiful place.

Does race = religion? It should and we all should have the chance to practice it and be.

Including nothingness? Which might actually be more of a challenge than thought?

Zanjan: God never made His faith to be a source of contention; in fact, it's supposed to be the source of unity. All religion comes with same cautionary because we experience the same dynamics over and over again. People get their priorities backwards - they'll follow an ordinary human before they follow a Messenger of God, even when they same the same thing.

The Revelator: (rejected by many)

“The thought manifests as the word;

The word manifests as the deed;

The deed develops into habit;

And habit hardens into character.

So watch the thought and its ways with care;

And let it spring from love

Born out of concern for all beings"

~ Buddha, 500 years before Jesus Christ

Compare:

The learned human (accepted by many)

“Keep your thoughts positive, because your thoughts become your words.

Keep your words positive, because your words become your actions.

Keep your actions positive, because your actions become your habits.

Keep your habits positive, because your habits become your values.

Keep your values positive, because your values become your destiny.

~ Mahatma Gandhi, a follower of the Hindu faith

People more easily accept the truth when they don't know where it came from.

Zanjan: Religion isn't against religion. There's human prejudice against religion. Additionally, some have failed at it. When religious folks are prejudiced, they don’t get that they’re rejecting their own religion. They've not understood He is the same God of all people, all religions, and of all creation.

Baha’u’llah wrote that religion is ““the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world, and of tranquillity amongst its peoples.” When the lamp of religion is obscured, He says, “the lights of fairness and justice, of tranquility and peace cease to shine.”

Putting that into perspective, Abdul-Baha explained, “If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion.”

Religion becomes muddied because spiritual water flows downhill. When it finally reaches the lowest element, it bleeds out into the salty sea of humanity where it’s no longer palatable. Faith is no longer genuine. Therefore, it’s said that if you join a religion because of the people, then you’ll leave it because of the people.

Zanjan: The Manifestations of God aren't regular humans. They're not made of the same stuff we are - they have no ego. The flow of communication between Them and God is unhampered. When one realizes that, we have to submit, knowing where our true place is.

We all have egos; it takes humongous effort on our part to rope it into submission. If we succeed, that's not cause to celebrate because that rope isn't strong enough to hold it for long. We're gonna get rope burns. Smoke will rise.

So, we need a way to painlessly put it underneath us, in the dungeon, where the worst it can do is rattle its cage.

That way is the way of God. We step up to the being who's larger, heavier, stronger, and stupendously magnificent. That is our radiant, higher spirit - our true, noble being; it had always been there, the being God created in His image. In relation to that, the lower self (base nature) is nothing.

DIAMONDfire: It is said to be Bhakti that in Hindu religion leads to the highest realisation, and it is said by Sri Krishna himself that the highest form of Bhakti is devotion. And this is most honourable. But there is another way, and this occurs through the body in the form of Hatha Yoga, which is based on the physical body. At the end of the day is all of the spiritual theorising and mind-play substantial, of course it is, but it evaporates. Some people are forward orientated, and others are one step at a time-like. A physical science like Hatha Yoga or Martial Arts is said to be of the hardest paths, and rarely yields moksha (liberation). Nevertheless it is something and anyone can participate. Not to be scared of, the body only gets deeper and deeper as you know it, like a temple which it is described as in the bible. But it is the hardest path and it is the least reliable in terms of spiritual realisation.

Not everyone has a grant to God? Some people end up more like a symbol, life becomes a roll of the dice. This probably explains my passive side, a sensitivity not-common, not all that profitable.

If God doesn't discriminate, then why is discrimination so important? So integral?

Zanjan: Hatha yoga is certainly good for the body - bonus, there's no cardio. I've taken that as well as Judo because it doesn't break bones. Both are good disciplines with practical uses. Much can be learned on how to sync body and mind.

Personally, I didn't think either was very hard. Could be that determination is key. You've got to want to do it, not do it because you should.

Attention to body control is a tool to facilitate control of the mind - focus, patience, breathing, mindfulness. There's a wholistic element; as surely as physical exercise makes one feel lighter, more relaxed, happy and better able to cope, this does the same - one isn't dwelling on the self, isn't worrying about things, isn't sad. Tai Chi will do the same thing as Hatha yoga.

You're right - none of those disciplines are the path to spiritual perfection. One's gains are only temporary. For humans, spiritual perfection is impossible but enlightenment is pretty darn good, if I do say so myself!

The spiritually-minded strive for good health in every respect. No vices, no excesses. A clean, wholesome lifestyle is the most comfortable and least costly way to live. I wonder how long it will take society to catch on to that. Perhaps two more generations ought to do it.

Zanjan: "Some people end up more like a symbol......"

I don't know what you mean by that. Do you have some examples? Rolling the dice, to me, is the same as 'flying by the seat of your pants' and nobody can do that for very long. Soon enough, the individual must plan ahead, even passive folks must.

One should have a discriminating taste, not discriminate against people. God does have favorite individuals but the favour is deserved. It's fair justice. Do you treat the criminal and innocent the same? If you did, you'd destroy them both. You give them what they deserve - they both deserve to be treated with respect but they don't deserve identical rewards.

Mercy, however is not something anyone deserves - its a grace and its not handed out indiscriminately. There is criteria, maybe only one but it makes one eligible for mercy. Mercy doesn't imply justice is waived; it's a measure of alleviation, peeling off the sharp edge.

The world operates and moves forward on justice, not mercy.

God does everything right; by copying His ways, eventually, we understand them.

DIAMONDfire: Losing one's identity through sickness, confusion or crime of sorts can turn you essentially into a symbol, a strange thing. The roll of the dice is the mode of chance you succumb to, it's not well known that is a low life.

It's an interesting comment on mercy not in favour of judgement. Judgement can kill.

Communication seems to be the ultimate justice I would argue, some people are unreachable so how do you communicate in these circumstances? If God is the Word that is important.

The mind is hard to harness, but the body gives you a concrete model of life. If you get the chance you must take it!

DIAMONDfire: These are just a few personal reflections what life has taught me a little off topic. Trauma is always distressing and experienced as a memory, one is battling with one's memories which could last into decades. (Freud).

But communication is ethereal, of an eternal substance, it is communication which we most need, spiritual communication if no earthly option is available. Any thing to facilitate understanding is of God in my view, or spirituality in genuine.

Its an irony that discrimination is a mark of God, the high path is selfish really. It seems to be the place where group strength is most required, to alleviate the fact that one is living for oneself, because when you are suffering this is the hardest thing to comprehend.

Thats why putting God in his rightful place is so important, he came for the lost. But its so complicated, some people you can't help because it's too dangerous.

The path is the most important thing.

Zanjan: Diamond: “Judgement can kill”

Indeed, it can but it can kill without destroying. Sounds impossible but I assure you it’s not. If I take away your freedom because you’re a criminal, what am I killing?

Surely, it’s not your self-esteem or will to live; otherwise, criminals would never attempt a legal appeal or plea bargain, never try to escape, never wheel and deal contraband, never attack other prisoners or stage a prison coup.

It happens they put on the appearance of best behaviour so they can get paroled, with the possibility of obtaining legal Pardon - a forgiveness they couldn’t have got from people any other way.

Wrongful judgement can never destroy the innocent. It actually drives the offended to champion fairness and understanding for others, not just themselves.

The truth will always be revealed and the innocent will always be compensated by God, Himself, for whatever they’ve suffered in the path of righteousness. As long as they maintain their integrity, their minds will be free.

Zanjan: “some people are unreachable so how do you communicate in these circumstances?”

Everybody has needs – you look at what they need. That spot is the talking point so you’ll lead with that, giving them what they need. It may be the individual doesn't know what they truly need so won't move past that point - it's because they're not ready yet. Don't push, their feet are unsteady; they'll fall off the cliff, taking you with them.

Sometimes, your communication isn't in words - its the conveyance of material things.

Rural dwellers have mousetraps all over their house - it's required. Last winter, one of my traps was sprung but there was no body - the mouse narrowly escaped. That filled me with dread because now he'd learned to avoid all the traps.

Between my parrot's cast off seeds and chewing through bagged goods, it grew and grew, bigger than any mouse I'd ever seen. It's as if he thought I was providing food for him.

He ran all over my kitchen counter - mice are incontinent; ick. Detesting his slippery ways, I wanted to see him dead. You can't put out poison - who wants a stinking rotting body you can't find anywhere?

Things got worse when he started taunting me by extending his outings further into the light each day. I'd yell "HEY" but somehow, he'd perceived I wasn't a killer.

He wasn't afraid of me anymore. He'd come out in the open and walk all over the room or my desktop, looking at me eye to eye, tilting his head, to ask "whatcha doin?'. He'd run over my feet. Once, he crawled up onto my chair, then my shoulder then jogged down my arm like a ninja while I was reading. Quite startling. But, like, impressive, eh.

Six months had passed, then I found a new kind of live trap on Amazon. Bought two and baited them - this time, with a different bait. A couple hours later, I GOT him! For real, I recognized his dark coat. Happy, happy me! He wasn't stressed - he'd eaten all the cheese.

When I released him outside, unlike other mice, he didn't leap out of the trap, flying at full ground speed into the bushes. He hesitated; he didn't want to go. He looked up at me as if to say "You don't want me anymore???"


Ok, I guess he wasn't really bad after all. I told him it's the end of an era, he must go out into the big world and stand on his own two feet. He understood. Then he WALKED out....didn't skitter like mice do, just walked. Walked like a man.

Do you see how love begins to grow in the darnedest places? Just cancel the fear.

DIAMONDfire: It's healthy to fear God, I would say, can a person cancel fear I suppose so if that is so desired. Does religion have the answers to the worlds woes? Religion claims to have all of those answers, most people myself to a certain extent, kind of take religion with a grain of salt, that might be an overstatement but it's not common to hear religion as the answer today, most of the time it's the destroyer. I think judgement is a really big deal in the world today though, mercy could be used far better than it is. Why can't a human demand mercy? I ask! Would it not be vanity so? Nobody acknowledges the destroyed lives that we witness, day in day out on the tv, somehow this doesn't matter. In a world where criminality is so 'complicated' and entrenched in the system, there would be a lot of dead people under the method you propose, Criminality is black as black, I say fear God. In the mean time do the best job you can.

I think we as a human family need to get a better handle on law and justice and especially the human psyche, existence. I can't talk but understanding goes a long way I would say, the answers the real answers can come if they are allowed to.

We live in a masculine dominated world where free expression is curtailed for rigid exploration, there can't be one way. There always has to be two ways, if someone is right then another person is wrong and vis versa, healing is the highest work of Man.

DIAMONDfire: The connection in-between Man and God is the most important thing, it is predicated on healing or spiritual realisation.

The Hindu's have found God in a stone, over the course of centuries the stone has then become a temple, everyone pilgrimages to it with only a story remaining as linkage.

God is authenticity, a way-home not a mode of condemnation. Faith without Works is dead, that is hypocritical sounding today I know we are not meant to judge, we do but true spirituality is without judgement. Without Law.

It can't be justified through the mind's process.

DIAMONDfire: I really see spirituality as concerned with healing. Religion? Does it involve law and order?

I think law and order is removed from religion, a kind of other side.

As a point of interest though, could it be possible for criminality to cancel itself out? In other words for there to be a revolution in law? And punishment?

It's a strange interest, modernity. ?

Zanjan: “It's healthy to fear God, I would say, can a person cancel fear I suppose so if that is so desired.”

The term ‘fear of God’ doesn’t mean to be afraid of God. How can you genuinely love someone when you’re afraid of them? Those in abusive relationships don’t understand their feelings but they can be educated.

So, the fear of God means a profound respect for His justice. When you’re in love, your loved one’s happiness is your happiness.
You’d never *knowingly* do anything to upset, hurt or disappoint the one you adore. Should that occur, it’s the same as if you’d done it to yourself. Most don’t know that until they experience it.

"Faith without Works is dead,"

It's all about service - serving God and fellow man. How can you say you love but do nothing for those you love? How can you withhold education and a healing remedy from anyone?

Zanjan: “can a person cancel fear I suppose so if that is so desired.”

Why wouldn’t one desire that? By calming anxiety and reducing stress, fear is diminished; but,it's still there. We want to eradicate it.

As you know, one is comfortable when they’re certain of a thing but cautious when they have doubts. Therefore, establishing certitude is the first stage to reach stability. Like the mouse, gradually, trust grows because safety is being tested. At a certain point, one throws caution to the wind, replacing it with courage. What is that turning point?

Courage isn’t fearlessness; one recognizes the danger but overcomes fear because they SEE the way to success. What is required to make that leap when the outcome isn’t entirely known?

Logically, attraction has to replace fear. Step it up a notch and genuine love is risk-free. This is the robe of faith, a wisdom best taught from the earliest years.

Zanjan: “there would be a lot of dead people under the method you propose”

I wrote about natural tendencies as a pattern. So far, I haven’t mentioned a model. Not all criminals are murderers or psychopaths, but those, too, could be rehabilitated if they were willing.

“if someone is right then another person is wrong and vis versa....,”

That’s a black and white view, isn’t it? I don’t think this is necessarily true. For example, the reason opposites attract is to find strength where none exists. Each sees in the other what they, themselves, lack so they reach out to the other to learn. It’s practically instinctive.

Like this, when viewpoints appear opposed, that’s often only on the surface; a little digging and one can find a way to meet in the middle. Some element has to be the same. Nail it, then both can be right. This is unity, which is preferable to conflict, yes?

Zanjan: “most people myself to a certain extent, kind of take religion with a grain of salt, that might be an overstatement but it's not common to hear religion as the answer today”

You only get out of religion what you put into it. The mighty have no reservations while the elders aren’t lackluster in their enthusiasm. If the religion doesn’t have the answers, it certainly has the means to help one arrive at spiritual solutions to issues. What kind of issues depends on the Age one is living in.

"Religion? Does it involve law and order? "

Yes, God loves order; therefore He created laws to effect order. If a person is pure in heart and in love with God, they ARE in line, practicing those rules on their own.Their will is the same as God's Will. The laws aren't for their benefit, they're for those who don't understand.

Zanjan: "The Hindu's have found God in a stone, over the course of centuries the stone has then become a temple, everyone pilgrimages to it with only a story remaining as linkage. "

That's another pattern. The Celts had their powerful religious group called the Druids. They had a sacred stone which healed all who were injured and sick. The Druids were a rather secretive bunch, protecting it from would-be thieves.

No one knows what happened to it but the idea was taken up again in medieval times with the notion of the holy grail - the cup Christ used during the last supper. It was first mentioned in a poem, described as a stone cup; later, it became fashionable to believe it existed. Still, no one could find it.

Some said the Knights Templar had it; again, it seems to have disappeared. The Catholic church ran with the idea; however, they claim to have it - a fancy little agate cup you know full well can't be 2 thousand years old ( they used limestone cups or ceramics). nor would one cup be used to cater a meal during the Passover. Other churches claim to have the cup, each made of some other material.

The early Christians didn't worship material objects so, there's no provenance.

What all that tells us is some people needed props - a placebo. Some want power, and some are afraid. I can tell you one thing is true - healing doesn't happen at the drop of a hat.

DIAMONDfire: I really have mixed Christianity and Hinduism to get my own blend. Whether it's the difference between, the physical world and the spiritual world, I kind of feel magic or in Christian terms the miracle is a part of the deal. In this sense healing does happen at the drop of a hat. It's a duality, we are doomed to death, but we believe in eternity, we are completely in the dark but we seek for light. Actually the essence of faith, what can you say? It's what we like to do.

Maybe it's the tendency as we get old to believe in something unexplainable?

I still think my argument about the stone has credibility.

DIAMONDfire: Bearing in mind my first post was about proof of God's existence.

ghostgeek: The biggest telescopes in existence have failed to locate God, so no, there's no proof that he, or it, exists.

ghostgeek: If the Bible had never been written, the world would never have heard of God.

DIAMONDfire: God's existence is proven by - what we don't know.
We don't know everything.

Zanjan: Diamond: “Maybe it's the tendency as we get old to believe in something unexplainable?”

Belief has more to do with spiritual maturity rather than age. I’ve seen many a 21 year old who’s both perceptive and intellectually wise beyond their years. All these youth came from loving, stable homes; all of them were service- oriented. That tells me genuine love for humanity is the ripening factor.

Personally, I didn’t have that advantage in life; so, you work with what you’ve got through trial and error until you finally realize life is too short to make all the mistakes yourself. Then it’s time for a mentor.

The old maxim, ‘When the student is ready, the teacher will appear” does seem to hold true. That has Buddhist origins. Plato’s take on that was ‘The student becomes the master’. I think the former is a given, definitely not the latter.

I can believe in something that can’t be described in words, but not in something I don’t understand. I’m fine with accepting mysteries as is without trying to fill in the gaps. It’s ok to say “I don’t know’ because you can have faith that, eventually, you’ll find out if you persist in the quest. The prize doesn’t go to the one who gives up.