An Idea For Gaining Control Over The Damaged Reactors In Japan

StuckInTheSixties: A big part of the difficulty with gaining control over the damaged reactors is that the radiation levels close to them is higher than is humanly tolerable for any significant length of time. It makes the process of putting water on them very difficult. We're seeing helicopters dropping water. It's a VERY inefficient, ineffective process as the copter quickly makes a pass, most of the water from the small amount it can carry falling off target. And we're hearing now that a team of some fifty workers are basically sacrificing their health, perhaps their lives, in trying to get equipment in close enough to get water in there and hopefully gain some control over these reactors (and in two of the four Fukushima reactors, the storage areas for spent fuel rods, as well).

We've all seen firefighting equipment where a ladder can be extended quite high, with a water hose and nozzle at the top so that water can be focused down into fires from on high. All big cities have such equipment. This would be very helpful for dousing the reactors. It would allow water to be pumped right into where it needs to go. But of course, the problem is that manning such equipment isn't really feasible due to the radiation levels that one would encounter being that close to the reactors.

This puts an idea in my mind:

Why is it not possible to have remotely controlled vehicles to do this? TRACKED vehicles that can climb over a fair amount of rubble. A vehicle that would drag charged waterhose behind it, close upon the reactor, extend a boom high up into the air, and spray water directly upon the target. It would be quite easy to place small video cameras on the vehicle, on the boom, etc. that would be used to slowly guide the vehicle up to the target and aim the water stream. In fact, it would be quite easy to use this in conjunction with small, relatively inexpensive, remotely-controlled, hand-launched surveillance aircraft such as many militaries are already equipped with.

I'd like to see the big vehicle, slowly crawling up to the reactor, extending the boom, shooting a continuous high-pressure stream of water directly into those reactor buildings, a remote controlled camera bird flying circles around it, peering down into the reactor with impunity, while technicians at a safe distance controlled the vehicles.

I'm no genius or rocket scientist, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to have had this idea. So why doesn't this equipment exist? It would involve no new, unproven technology, and would seem to me to be easily fashioned from technology that is quite available. I would think that any one of these very expensive reactors would have this equipment on hand, no less a part of the overall system as any other part. Of course, were the Fukushima reactors so equipped, with these vehicles housed nearby, the vehicles would have likely been lost in the tsunami. But there would be other vehicles at other reactors that could be brought in.

Morsy: One would think they would have these available as they are leaders in producing robotic type vehicles etc good idea.

StuckInTheSixties: Until this circumstance I had no thoughts of it, but watching what's happening on television, it seems so obvious to me:

How come ever single reactor anywhere in the world does not have, as a part of that reactor system, a garage with remote control fire-fighting vehicles inside of it, kept there for just such a circumstance? They would be expensive, of course, but a pittance compared to the cost of the reactor itself.

Hyenablood: that is an excellent idea sit, Japan would have one of those handy gadets around, but with the eathquake, maybe the machines were crushed in the earthquake or swept away with the water.
The US has lots of these types of machines, that can travel and carry heavy things, why doesn't the US military give a few of their machines over to the Japanese ?

StuckInTheSixties: No one has what I proposed. It's not a genius idea or anything, so I can only assume that there must be some reason they don't have remote controlled firefighting equipment. But I don't know why.

I just heard on the news that the Japanese have finally accepted help from the US Navy, who is bringing in some giant water pumps.

Hyenablood: well at this point in the crisis we can safely say that any idea should have be thought of and used LONG time ago, before the people had to start fleeing for their lives.

Yan26: How big would this thing be? If it is small it wont have the power to carry a big hose pumping water. If it it is too big it wont be able to move around in most places. Also you need a lot of strength to catch a hose that lets out a powerful stream of water . So for a really big hose your robot would have to be small so that it can be manueverable and strong enough to be able to hold on. Also I believe they have still not created robots that can go over any form of obstacles. On of the MARS rovers actually got stuck in a hole and they could never get it out.Military robots would normally be designed to crush obstacles . In this case you would need one which goes over them. I know I have not provided you with a solution but I am just saying why they probably dont have such a robot.

StuckInTheSixties: No, you're thinking WAY too small. This thing would be BIG, like the same piece of equipment with wheels that would be used by a big city fire department. There is typically ample space between buildings enough for it to get in there. It's the same thing that they're actually going to do there in Japan, except that there are humans having to man the equipment and sacrifice themselves.

Open the Wiki link here, go to the bottom of the page, and expand the picture labelled "Closeup of Units 4,3,2 and 1."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Note that there is a big service road that runs right along the four reactors. It looks like there's a lot of room to get in between the separate reactors, as well. You'd be able to get a VERY big piece of equipment in there.

You're thinking small, like the Mars Rovers. I'm thinking of a big, muscular piece of equipment, like regular fire engines, except that there would be radio control, easy to do, perhaps even with a hard wired control instead of radio. And it would have tracks, like a tank, or bulldozer, so it could climb over at least a fair amount of rubble. It would drag a long, tough hose behind it for water supply. The hose, like regular fire hose, would be segmented, with the segments being attached one by one as needed as the unit moved along toward it's target.

AussieOi: Surely it can be done better than Cherobyl, where workers were sent in with buckets and mops. They died of course.

StuckInTheSixties: At 11:00 PM California time, I am watching a live video image, shot from the same long-distance vantage as that which showed the explosions at the Fukushima Reactors. The live video shows fire trucks up close to the reactors blasting it with high pressure water.

My idea would be to have essentially the same equipment, but rather than having human operators receiving massive exposure to radiation, have the trucks be operated remotely.

AussieOi: 'Sits' I see only three potential flaws to your idea which is pretty damned good. Cost, efficiency and the big chestnut. The big chestnut is the fact that if clean ups are easy 'we' won't mind making a mess.

StuckInTheSixties: Cost:
I addressed that. The equipment would be expensive, but a pittance in the overall cost of a reactor. I'd estimate a machine like this would cost perhaps a few million dollars, maybe less than that. Reactors typically cost billions.

Efficiency:
I have no idea what you mean.

If clean ups are easy, we won't mind making a mess:
This would not make "clean ups ... easy." In fact, this has nothing whatsoever to do with "cleaning up." This would be only to provide the means to cool reactors with water as a last-gasp measure, the very last line of defense against catastrophe. It's being done this moment as I type, but at the cost of human health and life. I'd want to reduce the human cost.

AussieOi: Nice one Sits! Efficiency means if something does the job I suppose. As for last ditch disaster remedy well how many last ditches are acceptable ?

StuckInTheSixties: I not sure what you're getting at here, either.

It would definitely be "last ditch," but certainly not a "disaster remedy."

"how many last ditches are acceptable"

I have no idea what that means.

AussieOi: sits ^5 Do you like me yet?

StuckInTheSixties: Sure.

AussieOi: Hahaha, ok send in the cylons

Yan26: Well the problem I see is this. Water is used as a coolant for the nuclear fuel and also to move the turbines that generate electricity. This whole thing is housed int the huge concrete structures we see. Due to the earthquake the water supply got disrupted. So even though the nuclear fuel rods have been removed they are still so hot that they are creating huge pressure. Which is causing damage. If the outer concrete part cracked I think the situation would be catastrophic.But according to the news I have read they are still ok. So these huge trucks/robots how can they get the water inside in the chambers where they are needed? That is why I assumed you meant smaller robots.

flashie: its got to be cheaper than watching japans economy meltdown simultaneously.

v good idea. i heard the americans used a drone (at last for a good purpose) and measured the evil spewing out the thing. robots ftw

StuckInTheSixties: Yan says:
"Well the problem I see is this. Water is used as a coolant for the nuclear fuel and also to move the turbines that generate electricity."

Yes, and no. It's not the same water used for both purposes. There are two separate systems that work together to do that.

A reactor works this way: The fuel rods are arranged in such a way that their proximity to each other as they radioactively decay creates a great deal of heat. That heat is moderated by covering the fuel rod assembly with water. The heat from the fuel rods is transferred to the water.

The heat generated is still great enough that the water must be circulated, and cooled, much like the water and radiator in an automobile engine. And like in your auto engine, this water is kept under pressure, so it is actually hotter than the boiling point.

The circulation process is where the coolant water serves a second purpose. It's under pressure, and extremely hot. It's also highly radioactive, because it circulates around the radioactive fuel rods. While that superhot pressurize water remains contained within that circulation system, the heat from it is transferred to a separate system of pressurized water. The two systems are separate. The water doesn't mix. But the heat/coolness from the two systems transfers. The first, radioactive system heats the second non-radioactive system. Conversely, the second non-radioactive system cools the first radioactive system.

The heated water in the non-radioactive system is allowed to turn into steam, and it is that non-radioactive steam that turns the turbines and generates electricity.

Yan says:
"This whole thing is housed int the huge concrete structures we see. Due to the earthquake the water supply got disrupted."

Again, yes and no. Although the reactor generates electricity, that electricity is generates is sent to various transformer systems where it is "transformed," reduced in voltage, and sent out over transmission lines for general usage on the grid. It is electricity from this grid that returns to the reactor plants to power the pumps that circulate the water, as described above. The earthquake caused the grid to fail, interruption the electricity powering the pumps. However, the reactor has a backup system of self contained generators. These would normally automatically turn on to provide electrical power to the pumps to keep the system running. The reactors withstood the quake.

But ...

The tsunami surge that followed the quake covered those emergency generators with sea water, wrecking them. Again, the electricity to the reactor pumps was disrupted. They also have a second backup system, batteries, but they either were also wrecked by the tsunami, or simply ran out of electricity quickly.

This all left the reactors without working pumps, without a way to cool that pressurize radioactive water surrounding the fuel rod assemblies. This caused the enclosed, pressurized system to fail, springing leaks, and filling the containment buildings with superheated, radioactive steam. That steam contained a high level of extremely flammable hydrogen gas. The hydrogen inevitably was ignited, and the buildings exploded from within.

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StuckInTheSixties: Yan says:
"So even though the nuclear fuel rods have been removed they are still so hot that they are creating huge pressure. Which is causing damage."

I don't know what this means. Removed? Removed how? Removed from where? The reactor vessels itself? The nearby separate storage area for spent fuel rods?

Yan says:
"If the outer concrete part cracked I think the situation would be catastrophic.But according to the news I have read they are still ok."

Actually, there is great fear now that the outer concrete layer of the reactor vessel in Reactor 3 might be damaged in just this way.

Yan says:
"So these huge trucks/robots how can they get the water inside in the chambers where they are needed? That is why I assumed you meant smaller robots."

No, I'm simply talking about doing what they're already doing right now, just putting water onto the outside of the actual reactor vessel, and onto the stored spent fuel rods. These are all housed in the same building, which now has no roof, and walls that have been knocked down. They are now open to the air, and open to streams of water that can be showered down on them to hopefully keep them cool enough to prevent total melting of the reactor core, and all of the terrible consequences of that.

Frankly, how they could go from a situation where they are cooling the reactor and spent rods by showering them with outside water to being able to contain the problem is something I don't know. Perhaps someone else reading this with a better understanding of these things can enlighten us, and answer this question:

Assuming that they can prevent meltdown by hosing the damaged plants down with water, as men are now heroically, and suicidally doing now, how do they go from that to ultimately containing the problem, and stopping the radiation from escaping into the environment? How do you go from one process to the other?

Malobear: This is the report SITS in the last hour from MSNBC
TOKYO — Exhausted engineers connected a power cable to a tsunami-crippled nuclear plant, a crucial step in the race to prevent deadly radiation from an accident that Japan now rates at least as bad as America's Three Mile Island in 1979.
The plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., said on Friday it had succeeded in connecting an external transmission line with the stricken Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant and confirmed that electricity can be supplied.
In a statement, the company said it "planned to supply Unit 2 first, followed by Unit 1, Unit 3 and Unit 4 ... because Unit 2 is expected to be less damaged."
Fire engines also sprayed water overnight on a reactor deemed to be in the most critical state at the plant in northeastern Japan, 150 miles north of Tokyo.
The U.N. atomic agency said that conditions at the nuclear complex were still grave but not deteriorating as badly.
"The situation at Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plants remains very serious but there has been no significant worsening since our last briefing" on Thursday, said Graham Andrew, a senior official of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said Friday.
"The situation at the reactors at Units 1, 2 and 3 appears to remain fairly stable."
The Japanese government acknowledged Friday that it was overwhelmed by the scale of the natural disasters.
"The unprecedented scale of the earthquake and tsunami that struck Japan, frankly speaking, were among many things that happened that had not been anticipated under our disaster management contingency plans," said Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano, admitting that information had not been shared quickly enough.
"In hindsight, we could have moved a little quicker in assessing the situation and coordinating all that information and provided it faster," he said.
Later, Prime Minister Naoto Kan urged the nation to unite.
"We will rebuild Japan from scratch. We must all share this resolve," he said in a nationally televised address, calling the crises a "great test for the Japanese people."
The unprecedented multiple crisis of earthquake, tsunami and radiation leak has unsettled world financial markets, prompted international reassessment of nuclear safety and given the Asian nation its toughest time since World War II.
At Fukushima, nearly 300 engineers were working inside a 12-mile evacuation zone. Their focus was on attaching power lines to four of the six reactors in order to restart water pumps and cool overheated nuclear fuel rods.
"Once we have an electric power supply, we will go slowly and carefully through the plant checking the various machines to see what is working and to also avoid short-circuiting them," a nuclear safety agency official said in the latest of round-the-clock briefings.
If those tactics fail, the option of last resort may be to bury the sprawling 40-year-old plant in sand and concrete to prevent a catastrophic radiation release. That method was used to seal huge leakages from the 1986 Chernobyl disaster, the world's worst nuclear accident.
Japan raised the severity rating of its nuclear crisis from level 4 to level 5 on the seven-level International Nuclear Event Scale, putting it on a par with the Three Mile Island accident in 1979, although some experts say it is more serious.
.Chernobyl, in Ukraine, was a 7 on that scale.

StuckInTheSixties: Fukushima is WAY more serious than Three Mile Island. It's not as bad as Chernobyl, but it's WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY worse than Three Mile Island. For one thing, the problem with Three Mile Island happened in only one, single reactor.

Frankly, I'm not even sure how many reactors were damaged in Japan. I'm pretty sure that a number of nuclear power plants were affected, and some others besides Fukushima damaged, but I don't know the specifics. Common sense suggests that whatever the situation is with other plants, it's not as bad as Fukushima, else we'd be hearing about it, other evactuations would have happened, etc.

Certainly, we know about the four reactors at Fukushima. The containment buildings of two of those four blew up when they had buildups of hydrogen inside the buildings that ignited and exploded. The other two are in better shape, but they're still stuggling to keep the cores from melting down, and keep the stored spent fuel rods from overheating and burning.

Nothing remotely like that happened at Three Mile Island. They had a partial core meltdown in one reactor core, and that resulted in a release of some pretty nasty emissions for a short time, but it was nothing remotely close to Fukushima.

Fukushima is going to be uninhabitable for miles around for many years to come. Three Mile Island is still an operational plant, still generating electricity, just not in that one reactor.

Malobear: I dont know SITS. I only see what seems to be a difference in size. The Three Mile Island reactor looks like you could cram all 4 of Japans reactors into it. I just dont know how they are making the comparison.

StuckInTheSixties: Hmm ... I'm really not sure as to the relative scales, the relative size of the facilities. It wouldn't be too hard to figure it out, though, with the aid of Google Maps (satellite views). There is a distance scale in the corner of every GMaps image.

davidk14: .

From what I have been able to get my arms around, the issue is not with the reactors themselves. All the reactors in Japan shut down as designed and the rods are protected. It's the "spent rods" that are being stored in "pools of water" that are the culprits. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

.