Is Alcoholism a Disease? (Page 3)

Corwin:
Well Zanjan... once again, you speak out of your ass, passing judgement and talking about something and someone you know nothing about... and of course hurling insult.

You claim that I am not well-behaved if I drink. How the F would you know that?? What makes you think I'm alone?? I'm almost never alone, and I certainly never drink alone.

You claim that if I drink, I am clumsy and can't carry on a conversation. Again... how the F would you know that?? I happen to have a very high tolerance for alcohol (which you would know if you read all my posts and not just picked through them for ammunition purposes to hurl your insults). In fact, back when I was in the music biz, I would perform onstage under the influence, and wouldn't miss a note or a verse, or a step for that matter... I would imagine that that would constitute a very high command of motor-skills and cognitive ability.

You say the reason I drink at home is so I won't get laughed at for being a sloppy drunk... my my, but you are just full of unfounded accusations today, aren't you? Drinking out in bars is far too expensive, you can't smoke in bars, and I am personally not fond of the company associated with that scene... I would rather share a drink with my loved ones, my lovely wife, or my daughter, or my father... or a valued friend.

I don't know what "drunk" you are thinking of when you write crap like that, but it certainly isn't ME. And once again, just as you lump all Atheists together as a bunch of immoral rapists and scum, you now lump all drinkers together into a bunch of slobbering idiots who fall down and get laughed at... and all have some kind of hopeless addiction. You just can't generalize people like that, and it only serves to demonstrate your ignorance.

Well....... FU Zanjan... once again, you don't know what the F you are talking about, as usual... why don't you keep your judgmental and close-minded opinions and insults to yourself. Go back to that hole in the sand that you love so much and stick your head back into it. Or better yet... go stick your head in a pig.

LiptonCambell: >>>You would know this…..how? What tests have you used; how often do you test? Ever failed? Ever had someone else test you?

What tests exist to gauge if someone is an alcoholic? Is it peer reviewed and the results change based on new data and information- or is it more like a facebook quiz, where one person makes the conclusion, and such a conclusion cannot be changed....

>>>you can bet it always leads to a serious one like cancer

Huh? While I do agree that alcohol can lead to some health issues....cancer? You're gunna hafta back that one up....

>>>Alcoholism is a *disorder* - namely, addictive disorder.

I agree. Addiction is a disorder. That doesn't make it a disease in any sense.

CoIin: Yeah, it's all about how you comport yourself after a few drinks. Here's Corvin doing a beer run....

Zanjan: Yep, harmless when on his back; obviously, where he should stay.

"once again, you speak out of your ass, passing judgement and talking about something and someone you know nothing about..."

Corvin, how the hell would YOU know?? I came from an alcoholic family; I was a junkie in my teens and an alcoholic in my early 20s, during which time I married an alcoholic (who later died). Two of my siblings were alcoholics. I worked in bars back in the day, so did my husband. Don't tell me I know jack - you're just pissed I can see through your little charade.

I quit booze 34 years ago and never looked back - meaning, I was never tempted to drink afterwards, despite battling 2 years of withdrawal symptoms. Comparing withdrawal from drugs and booze, quitting smoking was much harder.

"and certainly never drink alone" - not even a good liar either, which you'd know if you read your own posts in this thread, and others.

Alcoholism creates a serious environmental and social hazard; the abuse is passed down the generations until somebody wakes up and breaks the underlying pattern for future generations. Obviously, that somebody isn't you.

"What tests exist to gauge if someone is an alcoholic?"

Their bar bill/liquor store receipts, a period of abstinence with regular blood tests - toxicity monitoring identifies infringements. Withdrawal symptoms. Avoidance of teetotallers. Inability to dance without courage in a bottle. Mental changes (paranoid, harbouring contempt, denial, self-loathing, over-inflated ego, cover-ups and excuses, cheating/stealing, pathological lying and fault-finding, other addictive behaviour such as gambling and sex addictions) the combination of which are easily identified as "Personality Disorder".

Alcohol and Cancer: usually from liquor consumption, first attacking the liver. Stomach/abdominal, often following a long period of poor food intake from drinking and ulcers. Many get heart disease and often it triggers late onset diabetes. I could go on.

AA's description of alcoholism was chosen by its own alcoholic members; simply calling it a disease seemed like a less confrontational way to fight denial, while accepting it was a chronic condition. After all, the word means "Dis" ease....that is, not at ease. This isn't an easy or smooth way to live.

If the AA were to state facts bluntly, that would appear as fault-finding, which encourages denial. So, they wont say the CAUSE of alcoholism is "spiritual disease", and the "result" is a societal plague. That doesn't sound very welcoming, does it?

LiptonCambell: >>>Corvin, how the hell would YOU know??

Well, you've never met Corvin, nor seen him drink. He could you possibly know? All you're doing is making generalizations- which is ironic from a self-described "psychic"

>>>Their bar bill/liquor store receipts, a period of abstinence with regular blood tests - toxicity monitoring identifies infringements. Withdrawal symptoms. Avoidance of teetotallers

So what you're suggesting as a "test" is, in fact, subjective. There is no "test", just you passing judgement on, presumably, unrelated factors...

>>>Inability to dance without courage in a bottle.

What does having a low self-esteem have to do with alcoholism?

>>>Mental changes (paranoid, harbouring contempt, denial, self-loathing, over-inflated ego, cover-ups and excuses, cheating/stealing, pathological lying and fault-finding, other addictive behaviour such as gambling and sex addictions) the combination of which are easily identified as "Personality Disorder".

Couldn't that be attributed to unrelated mental problems?

>>>Alcohol and Cancer: usually from liquor consumption, first attacking the liver. Stomach/abdominal, often following a long period of poor food intake from drinking and ulcers. Many get heart disease and often it triggers late onset diabetes. I could go on.

You misunderstand me- I'm not asking about ulcers and diabetes- I have little doubt that alcohol would have effect on your health.

But I asked about cancer....and you suggest that poor food causes cancer? Huh? Wouldn't that mean that alcohol has nothing to with it? Wouldn't that mean that people who never touched alcohol all their lives have a same risk of cancer? Wouldn't that imply that cancer is caused by poor diets, and not alcohol at all?

>>> If the AA were to state facts bluntly, that would appear as fault-finding, which encourages denial.

So they hide all the facts on their system, and lie to people?

Clearly you agree that AA's conclusion that alcoholism is a disease is flawed- wouldn't that mean that AA is indoctrinating their "patients", rather than informing them?



Zanjan, I've noticed a trend in this thread....are you suggesting an abolishment of alcohol?

Corwin: Wow.... Zanjan's ability to pass judgement based on generalizations never ceases to amaze and astound me.

So now I'm performing some kind of "charade"?? And I'm a "liar"??

And I also have all these other issues as well?? "paranoid, harboring contempt, denial, self-loathing, over-inflated ego, cover-ups and excuses, cheating/stealing, pathological lying and fault-finding, other addictive behavior such as gambling and sex addictions"....

--------------------------

Well, Zanjan... I've been completely truthful, here and on other threads... I have no need to perform some kind of charade, and I hate liars and phoneys. I'm perfectly comfortable and even proud of who I am, and have no need to lie or pretend to be something I'm not.

Maybe you're just pissed that I don't neatly fall into one of your stereotypes, and you need to believe that I am a charade so you can maintain your crackpot notions. Or maybe performing character-assassinations of others makes you feel better about yourself.

I feel sorry for you Zanjan.

Zanjan: Lipton: "which is ironic from a self-described "psychic"

Really, how so, exactly?

"what you're suggesting as a "test" is, in fact, subjective"

Where do you get the subjective elements? Do you think the absence of testing provides proof?

"Couldn't that be attributed to unrelated mental problems?" Finally, a sensible question!

Everything about the 'mind' is related. For example, a person born with a weak constitution is more vulnerable to suggestion, unfounded fears, and chastisement. These weaknesses can be minimized and surmounted with quality child childcare education, together with astute parents who present as spiritually healthy role models - these will provide a safe environment in which to bring up the child. Any offspring will grow in strength and flourish if this environment is maintained.

However, if these critical needs aren't met from the very outset, the low-constitution child will develop certain mental and social problems that will stay with him for the remainder of his life. The damage is done; this child is permanently crippled and will always require consistent supports to be even a little productive.

The difference between the weak child and the child born with a strong constitution is the degree of suffering he can forebear. For both, there's a breaking point. The measure of endurance is directly related to how much the child learns about love and selflessness. Whatever that is, any progress will brake and lurch into reverse through consumption of intoxicating medications.

Now, a deprived and neglected child, who was born with a strong constitution may realize his potential if he finds the supports and education he needs for damage control before age 30. After that, all bets are off. That window of opportunity is small, and shrinks very quickly.

Lipton, I'm suggesting everyone abstain from the consumption of alcohol without a doctor's prescription. I don't advocate oppression. One has to find acknowledge the reality and find the will within themselves - that way, they will never be tempted, even by a sea of free booze around them.

Corwin: Where's this sea of free booze?? I'm gonna buy me some shore-front property.

Zanjan, we're all very sorry that you and your kin are so horribly messed up, and you have our condolences. It must really suck to be you, and you've already made that point very clear... you don't have to keep harping on it.

But news-flash... not everybody is like you... we don't all have deep-rooted psychological issues like you do. And unlike you, some of us can drink responsibly and maintain our composure. I was never a drug addict, certainly not a heroin junky like you were, I've never had a gambling problem, I've never been arrested for a crime of any sort. I have a wonderful family life, and in general life has always been pretty good for me.

That must really piss you off..... oh, but of course this is just a "charade" I maintain.

Has it ever occurred to you that those of us who can drink and not have a problem with it, are like that BECAUSE we're not alcoholics, or have addictive personalities like you do?

I've known real alcoholics... the drummer in my band was one, one of my best friends... he would become sloppy and fall down, he wasn't the violent sort but he would become suicidal and depressed. He was a messed up guy... we all tried to help him, but he died in a car wreck back in 2001. So, Zanjan, I do know the sort you are talking about... all too well... but sorry... that is not me.

LiptonCambell: >>>Really, how so, exactly?

That you claim to be a psychic, but are unable to view people outside of stereotypes? No, I guess that suits a cold-reader such as yourself...

>>>Where do you get the subjective elements?

Okay, lets review what you said;

"Their bar bill/liquor store receipts"

What is the exact dollar amount where someone becomes an alcoholic?(Or does that amount change person to person, aka subjective)

"a period of abstinence with regular blood tests"

What is the exact amount where someone becomes an alcoholic?(Or does that amount change person to person, aka subjective)

"toxicity monitoring identifies infringements"

What is the exact amount where someone becomes an alcoholic?(Or does that amount change person to person, aka subjective)

"Withdrawal symptoms."

Which? How Much?

"Avoidance of teetotallers"

Why wouldn't they avoid abstinence advocates? They're judgmental on anyone who doesn't suit their beliefs.

Either way, the fact that Corvin is here, and you are a teetotaller, seems to indicate that he's passed that test- he's not avoiding you- he's directly addressing you.

Or, by avoidance, you mean DISAGREEING with them?

>>>weak constitution is more vulnerable to suggestion, unfounded fears, and chastisement.

Again, that just proves more on Corvins behalf. You're chastising him, presenting unfounded fears, and are trying to make suggestions on how he should live his life...and yet, here he still is, going strong....

>>>Whatever that is, any progress will brake and lurch into reverse through consumption of intoxicating medications.

Why? Up until that point you seemed almost reasonable- then you made the avoid comment, with nothing to back it up, and expect people to simply accept it as fact cause you say so...

>>>Lipton, I'm suggesting everyone abstain from the consumption of alcohol without a doctor's prescription.

Well then I don't have much else to say to you on the subject. I feel you should have no say in what goes into the body of another person....

>>>that way, they will never be tempted, even by a sea of free booze around them.

I disagree. A person must make a personal choice within themselves to stay abstinent- outlawing alcohol denies that person their choice.

Not to mention it ignores all the previous issues that occurred during prohibition. It simply didn't work.

Zanjan: Corvin, personality is what you're born with - character, on the other hand, is what you build or destroy by your own volition. Nobody can do that for you.

I doubt you have the capacity to feel sorry for anyone but yourself. Your family doesn't gives a crap about you if they haven't confronted you about your drinking by now. Naturally, if they do, you'll blame it all on them as is your habit here.

Oh, and Corvin? You have this preposterous delusion I care about you.

Zanjan: "you claim to be a psychic, but are unable to view people outside of stereotypes?"

List the posters here who belong to a stereotype. Ask them tell you how they think I view them. Being psychic has nothing to do with one's world view or assessment of another's soul.

"cold-reader"? Is that how you understand detachment? Or are you judging my soul?

Re: Subjectiveness:

Price of booze - you forgot tax. It's the date and time of the purchases (frequency).
Amount of booze one drinks before intoxication occurs is inconsequential - it would be their failure to stop at 2 drinks. Corvin, that doesn't mean 2 kegs.

Blood tests: If one fails the first period of abstinence: 1 month, he's an alcoholic. He always fails the second period of abstinence: 6 months.
Toxicity levels - alcohol remains in the bloodstream for 5 days after the last drink.

Withdrawal symptoms - frequency and strength of urge varies, depending on time lapsed since the last drink plus how long a person has been an alcoholic. Detox may be required; in which case, the alcoholic suffers the DTs.

Drunks prefer spending time with those who can supply booze and will offer it. They particularly enjoy drinking buddies so they insist others drink too, under the most annoying pressure; they wont be easily convinced the other person doesn't want a drink and can have fun without one. They only time they back off is if the teetotaller says they're a recovering alcoholic. Nothing else will make them feel bad for their pushiness.

Corvin is here vehemently opposing any position I take on any topic; in this case, he's defending his right to get wasted while seeking to be thought of as a highly popular and respected member in the community. This doesn't mean he wants us to hang out together like best buddies.

"I feel you should have no say in what goes into the body of another person".

I wasn't seeking power of attorney

LiptonCambell: >>> it would be their failure to stop at 2 drinks

So if someone somewhere drinks 3 drinks, that person is an alcoholic?

>>>If one fails the first period of abstinence: 1 month, he's an alcoholic. He always fails the second period of abstinence: 6 months.

I'm sorry- why should someone attempt to have 1 month or 6 months of abstinence? So if I have 3 drinks in one night, or more than 2 drinks in 12 months, i'm an alcoholic?

>>>frequency and strength of urge varies, depending on time lapsed since the last drink plus how long a person has been an alcoholic.

Wait....are you suggesting that your tests are subjective? You clearly said it depends on the person....

>>>Toxicity levels - alcohol remains in the bloodstream for 5 days after the last drink.

What relevance does this comment have to what I asked? What does Toxicity levels have to do with testing if someone is an alcoholic?

>>>They particularly enjoy drinking buddies so they insist others drink too, under the most annoying pressure

But isn't this the same of teetotallers? They particularly enjoy non-alcoholic buddies so they insist others not drink in their presence, under the most annoying pressure.they wont be easily convinced the other person doesn't want to be sober and can have fun with them. Nothing will make them feel bad for their pushiness.

>>>Corvin is here vehemently opposing any position I take on any topic

Actually, he expressed his opinion before you did. In fact, your first message in this topic was to oppose his earlier comments.

So don't act like you're the victim of Corvin following you around- you followed him.

>>>I wasn't seeking power of attorney

No, you're seeking to resume prohibition.

anjie791: Well interestingly enough, my physiology lab did a case study on this a couple of years ago. I think it could be a disease , because there are many physiological responses that produce symptoms. There are also genetic components that are involved in this-it can be hereditary. I think it has more to do with a chemical imbalance that increases individuals to have the tendency to do certain things though. I don't think because a certain gene is expressed in your genetic code, you will be so and so.....I think if for example your mother and grandmother was an alcoholic, you may have a higher tendency of becoming one because of the certain genes passed on to you. On the other hand, it can also be culture. Heck ...a lot of people just like to drink, lol. So I don't know exactly ....this is a tough question ....there are and endless amount of possibilities.

anjie791: *an

Zanjan: "So if someone somewhere drinks 3 drinks, that person is an alcoholic?"

He's a red flag. That's where it starts - subtly, insidiously. Booze is a thief. When they can nurse a single glass all evening, why the *need* for 3? By then, it's not the taste they're enjoying.

"So if I have 3 drinks in one night, or more than 2 drinks in 12 months, i'm an alcoholic?"

See above. This isn't milk. Why would you choose to impair your mental function when the dangers (especially of the mouth) are so well-known? There has to be a reason. What's the motivation? If you're not flirting with addiction, you wouldn't want it - it wouldn't smell or taste good if you weren't used to it already.

I didn't say there was a test for "urge". The person is fully aware of his urges.

"But isn't this the same of teetotallers? They particularly enjoy non-alcoholic buddies"

No, that's not true. Teetotalers merely prefer that alcoholics drink on their own time; drunken conversation and behaviour is highly obnoxious and messy. Teetotalers offer everyone safe drinks. I'd send a drunk home in a cab.

I don't follow anyone around, much less Corvin. I pick by topic, particularly those areas where I have some experience. So, I'm not one to talk through my hat like some people here.

LiptonCambell: Zanjan, i pointed out that your 'tests' to prove alcoholism were subjective- you insisted that they were not.

So I asked for specifics- if your tests have any merit, then so would the amounts....but it seems all you can offer is subjective information and loose conclusions....

If I have 3 drinks, does that make me an alcoholic? If I get drunk more than once every 6 months, does that make me an alcoholic? You seem to be suggesting both are true in your comments, but when I ask you directly, you seen disinterested in giving me a direct "yes" or "no", instead suggesting that what I said was true- that your tests are completely subjective, and thus, are completely useless.

And what about the people who ENJOY being drunk? What harm is it to you? Isn't it possible for someone to enjoy being drunk without being an alcoholic?

>>> Teetotalers merely prefer that alcoholics drink on their own time

On their own time? Weren't you the one who suggested that drinking alone is a sign of alcoholism? Isn't drinking a social experience? If you're not drinking with others, then there is probably something wrong with you....

>>>Teetotalers offer everyone safe drinks. I'd send a drunk home in a cab.

And both is good advice, but not mutually exclusive.

>>>I don't follow anyone around, much less Corvin. I pick by topic, particularly those areas where I have some experience

Be that as it may, you clearly accused Corvin of following you around- when that isnt the case

Zanjan: Anjie, doctors think a bad reaction to alcohol (unable to hold their liqueur - going Indian) is a form of allergic response. They know alcohol depresses the immune system. Many drunks leave an establishment and go to their car to sleep it off - they contract pneumonia and die.

Substance abuse creates a false immunity - that is, chemically speaking, the body gradually requires more and more medication to get the original effect. Eventually, toxic levels are reached and the body crashes from poisoning. Alcohol poisoning can kill.

When all is said and done, nobody has immunity to alcohol except the abstainer.

Alcoholism runs in families because it's a familiar way of life that runs deep. The child is born into a specific type of family environment that passes on twisted perceptions, beliefs, and resentments to her. While she may later fight against that storymind, the roots are still there.

The child is like a young sapling; having grown up in a storm, it accepts the wind and knows how to lean. So, as an adult, she leans that way - that is, any relationship that doesn't have turbulence doesn't feel like 'home' to her. She usually marries an alcoholic, whether she recognized the person as one or not.......and sometimes, she unwittingly becomes one herself.

Truth, as reflected in the biblical maxim, that the sins of the father are passed on down to the seventh generation. This is why there are so many support groups for adult children of alcoholic parents.

Corwin: I'd like to point out that the original topic of this discussion was about whether alcoholism is actually a "disease" or not. My original posts on this thread were on topic, and were made with a bit of light-hearted humor, but still offering my own particular insight into this conundrum.

Zanjan has railroaded this thread into the "Alcohol is Bad - People who Drink are Bad" forum.

And her personal attacks against me seem to know no bounds.... now I also "feel sorry for myself and don't care about others", "my family doesn't give a crap about me", and I "blame everything on others", which has been my "habit" here??

Well, Zanjan... I could ask you to copy and paste proof of your accusations.... but I think it would rather be nice if we could just get back to the topic. I grow tired of defending my position against the vindictive rants of a delusional mad-woman.

anjie791: Lol yeah I agree with corvin, sorry zanjan but ur going off topic.

Farwuq: LiptonCambell:

I disagree. A person must make a personal choice within themselves to stay abstinent- outlawing alcohol denies that person their choice.





That is exactly what I said before, in this thread; alcoholism, ultimately is a CHOICE.......

Farwuq: Zanjan: Corvin, personality is what you're born with - character, on the other hand, is what you build or destroy by your own volition. Nobody can do that for you.

I doubt you have the capacity to feel sorry for anyone but yourself. Your family doesn't gives a crap about you if they haven't confronted you about your drinking by now. Naturally, if they do, you'll blame it all on them as is your habit here.

Oh, and Corvin? You have this preposterous delusion I care about you.






Wow. For such a "spiritual" person, with all this talk of "higher" planes of reality, and such, Zanjan sure sounds like the filth on "god's" bathroom floor........
All that talk of spiritual "enlightenment" and such, just goes "out the window" now, I guess, huh ?
I 'm glad all that religious/spiritual crap is not a part of my reality........

Zanjan: Corvin - " I'd like to point out that the original topic of this discussion was about whether alcoholism is actually a "disease" or not."

That was answered back a few pages ago..people agreed it was a disorder.

"I grow tired of defending my position"

What IS your position? You haven't answered the question yet.

Farwuq - "the filth on "god's" bathroom floor." Doesn't exist....is a figment of your imagination. You'll never get a cult following on that.

"All that talk of spiritual "enlightenment" and such, just goes "out the window" now,"

Of course, you're enlightened yourself so you can define what spiritual enlightenment is.

Farwuq: "All that talk of spiritual "enlightenment" and such, just goes "out the window" now,"

Of course, you're enlightened yourself so you can define what spiritual enlightenment is.

a few seconds ago • Report




No, and I don't claim to be.......Unlike you however, I am not a hypocrite about it

CoIin: We're all hypocrites in one way or another. Show me a person whose words and behavior are, and always have been, entirely consistent, and I'll show you a, um, non-hypocrite

I suppose you could say we're all prostitutes too, but some people charge more than others

The difference is quantitative; not qualitative

Dogs, of course, are exempt. We don't speak or charge for anything.

Farwuq: Read up on my post; never said all of us "are not hypocrites" ; I said in this context, I am not. See the difference ?