Just lookin for good conversation, and fun times, and goofin off...and ...and...CHEESE!!!
Crash: Why the argument from "design" FAILS!
Theist: "I have evidence of God. Just look at the order in the universe? Look at the trees! They are designed to clean the air. Look at birds! They are designed perfectly to fly. Look at the human eye, and compare it to a camera! Look at how complex it is; it's designed perfectly to allow for vision."
Any skeptic will invariably run into a theist offering similar logic for how things in nature are designed. They may even try to use the cliched (and many times debunked) watchmaker analogy.
Theist: "You can tell design just be looking at something. If you run into a watch on a sandy beach, you'll know it was designed just by looking at it! You can see the complexity, the order, the purpose."
What the theist usually doesn't realize when they make this argument is that cannibalizes itself because it presumes that one can distinguish between a designed thing and a non-designed, while at the same time beginning with a presupposition that there are no non-designed things! The argument destroys itself.
The next time someone tells you that something natural looks designed, ask them "what does a non-designed thing look like?" And when they inevitably fail to answer, that’s when both of you will realize the failure of their argument! 😉
The way we can tell that something looks designed is by contrasting it with that which occurs in nature. Rocks occur in nature; rocket ships do not. Sand occurs in nature; watches do not. Thus, we can presume that when we see these things, one is natural while the other is designed. But in a theistic worldview EVERYTHING "looks designed" because they begin with a presupposition that everything IS designed. Consequently, they have no frame of reference to distinguish between a designed thing and a non-designed thing. From that perspective, a rock would look just as "designed" as a rocket ship!
The other way the argument from design fails is that we can confirm design by demonstrating a designer. The designer of a watch for example can be demonstrated. We can see people designing and constructing watches. But theists cannot show any gods designing or constructing rocks. In fact, a god constructing a rock is the very thing they are trying to prove in the first place. But you don't prove that by showing us the rock, you prove that by showing us the rock-maker! If you can't show the rock-maker, then there is no reason for us to conclude that rocks had a maker, or that they are "designed" by anyone.
Crash: “God did X, Y, and Z for me” does not demonstrate evidence for a god. Not only does this fail as empirical evidence, but it doesn’t even count as anecdotal evidence, and therefore ought not be reasonably accepted as such.
The reasons for this are three:
1) Correlation does NOT imply causation. To reach a conclusion about a cause of something simply by observing an event is called a “post hoc ergo propter hoc” (this therefore that) fallacy! It occurs when people explain that a certain event happens because something else (which has not necessarily been demonstrated to be a cause, or even to exist) caused the event to happen.
2) The conclusion that God “did something” is based on an assumption that a god exists to do anything in the first place. If there is no god, then whatever happened cannot be explained by a god (something else must have been the cause). The fact that you don’t know what else could be the cause does not justify assuming that your presumption was the cause.
3) In order to demonstrate causation, one must conduct an experiment which establishes a link between the effect and the presumed cause. Even if a god existed, that doesn’t mean that any effect can be attributed to that god until the cause is tested, under specific controls, and yield repeatable and predictable results. That would give you the anecdotal evidence you need to reach a conclusion about a cause. When someone else using the same methods can independently validate the results, then it would graduate to empirical evidence.
Storytime: My cat “Crooks” has an automatic cat feeder that releases food twice a day. The first few times it went off while he was sitting next to it, it startled him and he jumped as a result. However he quickly realized that each time this happened food ended up in the dish. Now, when he gets hungry he has a habit of purposefully “jumping” next to the auto feeder, as if trying to trigger food to release. He has reasoned (in his cat brain) that because his jumping and the food being released occurred at the same time that his jump “caused” the food to come out. His reasoning is obviously flawed to us because as a cat he doesn’t understand how an automatic feeder actually works, we do! But in his mind he has “evidence” that jumping causes cat food to come out of the feeder.
Crash: It's "moral" because God says so?
(The Failure of Divine Command Theory)
In California, marijuana is legal for recreational purposes, however in New York it is not. If morality was tied to legality (as it is in the Christian model) then you’d have to presuppose that anyone using marijuana for recreational purposes is inherently an immoral person IF they are in New York, but NOT if they are in California. And this model imposes a moral judgement on someone all the while ignoring “intent”, “behavior”, and “consequence”. Morality under this model is dependent on authority, by which something becomes moral because it is allowed by an authority, and it becomes immoral because it is disallowed by an authority. This is the problem with the Divine Command Theory of morality. It’s not a system of morality at all, as there is no means by which to “test” moral claims. They are simply based on laws and commandments.
Well-being (as in the well-being of humans and human societies) is a standard of morality derived from secular humanism, not religion. And while a religion can incorporate this metric of well-being as part of its divine command theory, that does not demonstrate that well-being is in fact the primary goal of the religion. If it were, then we wouldn’t need a god, or a Bible, or a Quran to tell us this. We wouldn’t need commandments or laws, or a “judge” since everyone would be capable of rendering a judgement based on this established standard. We also wouldn’t need “blessings”, or “promises of rewards”, or an “afterlife”, or “punishments”, or “divine retribution”, because none of that stuff is relevant to human well-being in this life. On the contrary, those are all things that de-value the importance of this life. If this life is the important one, then why would there be a second one to replace it? And if the second life is the important one, then what is the value of this one?
Homosexuality has no impact on human well-being, nor does practicing astrology, worshiping other gods, worshiping no gods, or eating shellfish! And yet these are all “laws” in the bible associated with punishment. These things are called “immoral” in the holy scriptures, while having nothing to do with well-being. Moreover, God punishes the innocent along with the guilty (visiting the inequities of the parents to the children to the 3rd or 4th generation). He killed all of the firstborn children of Egypt as a demonstration of his power, not because they were immoral. He ordered the destruction of the children of the Amalekites, not because they were immoral, but because their parents supposedly were (according to him). The bible says that God is a god of justice, and that only God is good. And yet this same god is described as a “jealous” god who executes “wrathful rebukes” and seeks “vengeance” (things that are deemed immoral for humans by the same agency). These are not the attributes of “goodness”, nor are they attributes of “justice”. They are attributes of a narcissistic HUMAN who has made up his own definition of “good” and who hasn’t yet learned the difference between morality and justice.
If morality was “objective” as is often claimed by the religious, and it was also based on “well-being” as is now claimed by the religious, then God now becomes subject to the same moral judgments based on the exact same standard he created. Morality couldn’t CHANGE based on God’s mood. God being a triggered snowflake wouldn’t invalidate the standard when it’s convenient for him, and then replace it to be used as an example for others. It would be consistent, otherwise it couldn’t ever be tested. If morality changed based on God’s mood and preferences and killing the innocent becomes okay sometimes, then it’s not only subjective, but also relative!
The reality is, well-being is NOT the priority (nor even the purpose) of morality under the Divine Command Theory as practiced in religious traditions such as Christianity and Islam. The purpose of what they are calling morality is to glorify God. “All things were created through him, by him, for him”. Humans are commanded to praise him, give all thanks to him, give all devotion to him, and give all credit for anything good to him. Conversely, we are to never question him, never test him, never worship gods other than him, and never blame him for anything bad. He supposedly created “free will”, but he gets to take credit for everything good that anyone does in accordance with that will, but never be held accountable for anything bad that anyone does with their will. Got that one wrapped up in a nice little bow - but that's not "moral system", (and if it were you'd have to call that "Trumpism". True moral systems enable us to determine what is moral under a set standard that doesn't change. And if we agree that the standard is well-being, then God could never be described as "all good" according to that standard.
Crash: I can’t wait to play final fantasy 7 remake: complete edition, remastered on my PlayStation 6 Pro in summer of 2033!
florecitacol: I am serious belefe I love to this man. Is hansome. Is beatiful. Is smart. Is inteligente
Crash: The Flying Car Analogy
A person comes up to you telling you the wonders of their new flying car (Jesus). They tell you it is very fast, very durable and completely safe. It is so safe the company pays your insurance for you.
They produce a brochure (Bible) full of accolades about the car, which they know so very well. They tell you of their friends who now have flying cars, and how much happier they are for buying them.
I ask for a test drive, but am told no flying cars are available to test drive now. I have to instead make payments (tithing) until I die and after my own demise I shall receive my very own flying car.
I reply “No thank you” as such a contract makes no sense.
I am then told if I fail to enter into the contract the maker of the car (God) will be so angry he will dump me into a volcano if I refuse to enter into the contract.
I see no evidence of the car’s maker (God) or the car (Jesus).
With no evidence to support the reality of the car (Jesus), or maker (God) why should I not think this is a confidence scam?
View all 31 posts
Crash in reply to rochelleforsberg: ONCE AGAIN....as you seem to have a hard time understand this ....I'll repeat it for you.
Something isn't "true" simply because you believe it is ....or claim it is!!
Please try to get that. Otherwise you simply appear ignorant or dishonest.
Crash: According to the bible, God does things for his own glory. Everything was made by him (FOR HIM). He uses man to gain glory for himself. He kills men (and their children) for NOT glorifying him. He is a jealous god, punishing the children for the sins of their parents of those who hate him. And if men love their own family more than him, they are not worthy of him. The god of the Bible is a fucking narcissist! Everything he does, he does for HIM (whether it’s helping man or hurting him). Nothing is done with humans being the priority; man is a secondary afterthought in Christianity! Read the Bible: (Exodus 14:17-18; Exodus 20:5; Isaiah 48:9-11; Matthew 10:34-38; Luke 14:26; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:16).
This is not mine. This was a snippet of a conversation that a friend of mine was having with another individual. However, it was so spot on I thought I would share it with ya'll
Crash in reply to rochelleforsberg: Did that........nothing happened....still in pain.
Also.....I don't see how a long dead rabbi can "love" anyone? There is shaky evidence at best that the biblical jesus even existed. Even if he DID ....there is absolutely NO evidence he was raised from the dead or what the "son" of any "god."
The bible is a CLAIM....not "truth."
Simply claiming something is "true" because you believe it is , means absolutely NOTHING.
arielmaya216: hello there how are you, I just want to meet new friends here on wireclub hope I didn't bug you
Crash: I’ll just highlight what I think are the worst and most harmful teachings of Christianity that are somewhat unique to that religion.
1) In Christianity, human beings are the scum of the earth. This is the only religion I know of that trains children and adults (from cradle to grave) that they are born sinners and will die sinners. There is no such thing as a good person, no one can ever become good, no matter what you do. You exist as a fallen creation, you’ll never be good enough for God, you’ll never measure up, and you can’t do anything on your own. (Which is why everyone “needs” Jesus). Christianity is essentially the antithesis of everything that any psychologist has ever taught about how to raise children with positive self esteem, and how to grow into responsible citizens.
2) Hell! Not only did the God of Christianity intentionally create a napalm barbecue for the devil (which he also created), but he intends to ensure that most humans end up there. And even though humans are only capable of finite crimes, Christianity teaches that they all “deserve” infinite punishment...cause you know...torturing a conscious being who is now rendered harmless for all eternity is “fair and reasonable” and demonstrative of “love”. Admittedly, the Islamic God and the gods of other religions have similar failings in this regard.
3) Sacrificial atonement! Another thing shared in common with most other religions is that God is bloodthirsty. This guy really loves blood. In the OT is was the blood of animals. Animals had to suffer for human failings to “please God”. In the NT, human atonement requires human blood. But since it had to be a worthy human, and all humans are scum that meant that God had to come down as a human and sacrifice himself to himself to show just how much he loves his scum. Of course, he then gets to ascend into heaven and rule the universe for all eternity after that, so basically his “sacrifice” amounted to nothing more than a bad weekend.
4) Policing thought crime! Whereas most religions teach that people can be good or bad based on their actions, in Christianity everyone is already declared bad. So how do you convince everyone that they are evil, wicked sinners even if they have a conscious and always act conscientiously? Simple, have thought crime as part of your “everyone is a sinner” doctrine. That way it’s not just doing bad things that makes you a sinner, it’s also having bad thoughts. And since God cursed the land everyone lives in with death and despair, and since no one can control their own thoughts, they will always think bad things making all of them “sinners” by default. Got that one wrapped up in a nice little bow!
5) Suspension of Justice. Also unique to Christianity is the fact that evil doesn’t have to be punished. Regardless of how evil you are or how much harm or suffering you have caused, you can get a get out of hell free card just by acknowledging what Jesus did for you. The fact that he “atoned” for your sins (after arbitrarily declaring everyone to be a sinner) in order to create a loophole for the failed system that he put there in the first place means that despite everyone deserving to be tortured for all eternity, some people (including the worst of the worst) don’t have to be held accountable for anything at all. In the Christian system, a repenting Adolf Hitler gets to live in paradise with Jesus for eternity, while Anne Frank, the Jewish girl he tortured and murdered gets to spend eternity burning in hell for not worshiping Jesus. Because...you know...”mercy”!
While most religions serve to scare people into moral behavior by promising to punish the bad and reward the good, in Christianity morality is largely irrelevant. Not only does this life not matter (since the perfect creation will replace this one), but anyone can be saved or damned regardless of any actions they take. In Christianity, human well being isn’t important at all. It’s about “glorifying God” (or rather satiating a narcissistic monster) by keeping people enslaved to a concept, rather than establishing an actual relationship with them. Human children do not “owe” their parents anything. Parents have the duty and responsibility of raising their children (for their own benefit) with nothing in return. But in Christianity, humans “owe” God and God apparently has no responsibility whatsoever for providing for humans. But he wants you to call him father (despite being a deadbeat) and he expects your reverence as an authority, knowing that he doesn’t owe you anything. The Christian God holds human parents to a much higher standard of behavior than he holds himself.
Despite the tone snarkiness in some of the language I’m using here (mostly for emphasis), these are the cold hard facts of Christianity. This isn’t just my opinion, or my interpretation. All of this is actually based on official doctrine and supported with bible verses (which I can quote if necessary).
Islam is objectively the WORST major religion right now in terms of how extremists are able to use it to cause destruction and suffering in ways that other religions don’t. However, in terms of ideology and theology, Christianity is the worst religion because it has been designed to distort the definition of morality so that any believer must necessarily view amoral behaviors as immoral (without demonstration), and defend immoral behaviors perpetuated by their God with special pleading!
Any “godly” behavior perpetuated by a human being we would almost universally condemn as deranged, psychotic, or sadistic. Example: If I had the power to stop a child from being raped by a molester, and was aware that this act was about to happen, every other human being would charge me with the moral responsibility of stopping it. And yet, the Christian God (who is all-powerful) merely watches the molester rape the child, and then threatens both of them with eternal suffering unless they both repent their sins. Because this god is only interested in being worshipped, not actually protecting kids from rape. But despite that, Christians will call this God’s actions morally just, and then claim he is “good” for acting in a way that they’d call us evil monsters for. That is the level of brain damage that is caused uniquely by Christianity.
View all 12 posts
Crash: As usual, Zan is absolutely incorrect. Most everything I mentioned is absolutely NOT opinion. It is the very basic core doctrinal dogma of xtianity!! Attempting to change that demonstrable FACT by trying to say it's my "opinion" is not only dishonest , but just FACTUALLY Wrong!!
I see you haven't changed at all zan. Still puking up lies and ignorant assertions to push your narrative.
When do you believe ensoulment begins?
I only ask because this is the answer I get from most Christians.
If that's the case.....what if the fertilized embryo fails to implant on the wall of the uterus?
I would think then ...your "loving god" would be responsible for many abortions.
lisbail: Ok, you will never understand until you have your very own, personal, experience with God/Holy Spirit/Jesus. Then and only then will you fully/completely understand what you do not but think you do. And then you will be able to stop persecuting the rest of us. And, you will be able to answer your own questions and enlighten the world on what is missing in Christians. Until then its a Merry-Go-Round. So do yourself and us a favor and ask, ever so nicely, And then come share And get this...you can still choose to not believe...and that's OK too because it is your choice....know what I mean?
Heck, you might be like the Apostle Paul
Crash: Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian
10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 – You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
2 – You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.