Crash: So across the multiple debate groups I'm in Christians have been bringing up the moral argument against atheism. Claiming that without a god there is no true morality. That vile things like rape, pedophilia and murder are technically amoral. That any outrage we have against this is arbitrary.
Now to begin with, being atheist does not automatically mean that one is a moral relativist. Atheism does not address morality. So the first thing to point out to any christian using this argument is that you need to stop generalizing and focus your argument against those it actually involves. Moral relativists. Now with that out of the way we can continue.
My response to this argument is simple. If the Christian god exists pedophilia, rape and murder still are not ultimately wrong. To understand my answer I pose a question. Is something wrong because god says it is, or does god say it's wrong because it is ultimately wrong? .... (The Euthyphro dilemma)
If it's the former, than morality is still subjective and can be changed according to god's whim. We actually see this throughout the bible. The Christian god breaks it's own moral code time and again leaving Christians to have to justify despicable acts committed by their god. Further, if everything is part of god's plan and it's plan is ultimately good then all these acts are not only not wrong. They are completely justifiable and morally inconsequential, as they would by definition be a part of god's plan which is ultimately good. The transgressor can also simply repent and ask for forgiveness and will be saved anyways.
If the latter is true, then morality is a force beyond even god and therefore god is not necessary for morality to exist.
In conclusion, if the Christian god exists and dictates morality then nothing is really morally wrong anyways. So the Christian argument actually backfires tremendously. (This is also true for other gods where morality comes into. I simply focused on the Christian god because it has been Christians I've been seeing posing the argument.)
Jare: Tired and its a long topic for me to go into in full, but I'll take a quick crack at it.
Ethics and morality are not strictly a subset of religion. Doing what one considers right long predates the modern religions people practice.
And as far as Christianity goes, saying you can't be moral without God... Christianity is one of the worst examples of a moral system within doctrine. Why? Because despite laying down groundwork for what is and isn't acceptable, ALL of that is null and void by the very core fundamental of Christianity that makes it what it is--- Jesus dying for our sins so those who accept him can go to heaven. This is a flawed and broken system of morality because you aren't held accountable as long as you accept Christ as your savior. All the teachings expected of people become without purpose because someone can just go their whole life being an asshole to others, accept Jesus into their heart before they die, and bam they get to go to heaven. It is broken.
Furthermore, when it is asserted that the bible is what keeps people from raping and killing others, I find it disturbing. Doing what is right should keep you from these things, not fear of divine punishment. Before I start rambling and ranting, these two quotes make a good summary.
Zanjan: Q:"or does god say it's wrong because it is ultimately wrong?" A: He says it's wrong right from the get go and explains WHY. He doesn't make assertions in a vacuum: He's the God of the Laws of Order. Those principles never change. He also explains exactly how those laws work - anyone is welcome to test them. Atheists ignore them and look how they descend into chaos and confusion, bringing all of society down with them.
Can you be the authority of yourself and guide for yourself? Nope, you can only be imprisoned by your desires. *Genuine* moral conduct is release from that but consistency only comes by way of selfless love for the highest authority - God.
Jare is right -> "ethics and morality are not a subset of religion". Ethics arise out of best business plans, regulated by government and policed by one's peers so that the profession isn't utterly destroyed. Ethics directs itself to survival, not justice and order.
There's no such thing as a "Christian God" - there is ONE God and a litany of human perspectives on what He says. Interpretations are based on what the individual values (worships), not on God, Himself. When people value what humans say over God's directions, they've become corrupt. When the House burns down, God builds another.
Zanjan: Atheists don't build houses - they wander around without shelter. If you think this makes them tough, think again - they eventually succumb to the elements. Even an animal knows better.
Gods word is His commandments and instructions to His people who are those that "believe" in Him so that they may follow His way in life. God's commandments have not changed, if anything has changed it is how His people have perceived them and have carried out His word through religion.
Atheists are like a another nation separated from God's people. Your morality and values may differ, and what may seem right to you, may differ to what is right according to God.
Crash: Well I see Zan agrees that morality is subjective since she agrees with the former of my premises. However, then she goes on to do what she does best with the rest of her comment......makes bullshit , unverifiable, baseless assertions based on her own unverifiable beliefs ....LOL I would expect nothing less. Good for you zan way to be consistent.
Wheel your "god" says MANY things are "wrong" ....such as killing.......yet your "god" then proceeds to kill or order it's believers to kill consistently throughout the bible.
Seems like it's only "wrong" WHEN, HOW, and IF (at that specific time) "god" considers it "wrong" .....slippery slope for moral objectivists really. Seeing how , if morality comes from "god", as in, it is the source of morality.....it can change it's mind whenever it wants and ANYTHING that "god" says is "good" becomes "good" simply because "god" said so.
But it's always interesting to see how theists try to respond to this.......the thought experiment forces them to pick between two premises , both of which they don't necessarily like, because of the implications of how it reflects on their "god." Very interesting indeed.
Crash: Did I say "murder" ....NO ...I sure didn't .....maybe read what I typed moron....LOL.
I said "Kill" the commandment is "Thou shalt not KILL" .....then throughout the bible ....your "god" either kills directly or orders others to kill.......hmmmmm Guess it's do as I say ...not as I do ...with your "loving god" huh? Unless he directly tells you to kill...>THEN that's ok as well.
Zanjan: If a believer kills humans on purpose, He breaks God's law - has always been that way to this very day. God doesn't kill, unless you think passing our natural expiration date is killing. Humans kill, both themselves and others - those aren't fit for the Kingdom of God.
lisbail: Crash, how can you form an opinion about a God that you don't know? Why waste so much time on a subject that you clearly detest? But more than this...you are so arrogant and prideful...grandiose sense of self...I would've thought you above ego given your intelligence/intellect...Please be kind. You can still state your thoughts without attacking or bashing...
Crash: "Crash, how can you form an opinion about a god that you don't know?"
That's a VERY good question Lis....I could ask YOU and Theists alike the same exact thing.
However, to answer your question directly. My opinion stems from the character of said "god" that is described in the book that most theists consider to be without error , perfect, the divinely inspired word of "god." As that is all anyone has to go on....including theists. Which is why it always baffles my mind when they think that "god" is a "god of love."
"Why waste so much time on a subject that you clearly detest?"
I don't "detest" religion per se. What I "detest" is how people use it, to further an agenda and try to tell others how they may live their lives.
"But more than this...you are so arrogant and prideful...grandiose sense of self...I would've thought you above ego given your intelligence/intellect...Please be kind."
I think you have me confused with most christians sweetie. They are some of the most arrogant people in existence. They way I come across...they way I interact ...is simply a proportionate response to their arrogance and hubris. It irks me when they call their unverified , subjective beliefs...."Truths" then do NOTHING whatsoever to back up this claim. It's dishonest and hypocritical. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Srchng4Truth in reply to Crash: "they way I interact ...is simply a proportionate response to their arrogance and hubris." Two wrongs don't make a right. Jesus said on the cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Regardless of whether he existed or actually said this, that is a BEAUTIFUL, AMAZING standard to TRY to live up to. I am grateful for that specific story as well as other parts of the Bible that support loving even your "enemy". I like an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. I like let he who has not sinned throw the first stone. VERY inspirational to me. Ty God
Now to begin with, being atheist does not automatically mean that one is a moral relativist. Atheism does not address morality. So the first thing to point out to any christian using this argument is that you need to stop generalizing and focus your argument against those it actually involves. Moral relativists.
Now with that out of the way we can continue.
My response to this argument is simple. If the Christian god exists pedophilia, rape and murder still are not ultimately wrong. To understand my answer I pose a question.
Is something wrong because god says it is, or does god say it's wrong because it is ultimately wrong? .... (The Euthyphro dilemma)
If it's the former, than morality is still subjective and can be changed according to god's whim. We actually see this throughout the bible. The Christian god breaks it's own moral code time and again leaving Christians to have to justify despicable acts committed by their god.
Further, if everything is part of god's plan and it's plan is ultimately good then all these acts are not only not wrong. They are completely justifiable and morally inconsequential, as they would by definition be a part of god's plan which is ultimately good. The transgressor can also simply repent and ask for forgiveness and will be saved anyways.
If the latter is true, then morality is a force beyond even god and therefore god is not necessary for morality to exist.
In conclusion, if the Christian god exists and dictates morality then nothing is really morally wrong anyways. So the Christian argument actually backfires tremendously. (This is also true for other gods where morality comes into. I simply focused on the Christian god because it has been Christians I've been seeing posing the argument.)
Thoughts?..........
Ethics and morality are not strictly a subset of religion. Doing what one considers right long predates the modern religions people practice.
And as far as Christianity goes, saying you can't be moral without God... Christianity is one of the worst examples of a moral system within doctrine. Why? Because despite laying down groundwork for what is and isn't acceptable, ALL of that is null and void by the very core fundamental of Christianity that makes it what it is--- Jesus dying for our sins so those who accept him can go to heaven. This is a flawed and broken system of morality because you aren't held accountable as long as you accept Christ as your savior. All the teachings expected of people become without purpose because someone can just go their whole life being an asshole to others, accept Jesus into their heart before they die, and bam they get to go to heaven. It is broken.
Furthermore, when it is asserted that the bible is what keeps people from raping and killing others, I find it disturbing. Doing what is right should keep you from these things, not fear of divine punishment. Before I start rambling and ranting, these two quotes make a good summary.
jare's Picture
jare's Picture
Can you be the authority of yourself and guide for yourself? Nope, you can only be imprisoned by your desires. *Genuine* moral conduct is release from that but consistency only comes by way of selfless love for the highest authority - God.
Jare is right -> "ethics and morality are not a subset of religion". Ethics arise out of best business plans, regulated by government and policed by one's peers so that the profession isn't utterly destroyed. Ethics directs itself to survival, not justice and order.
There's no such thing as a "Christian God" - there is ONE God and a litany of human perspectives on what He says. Interpretations are based on what the individual values (worships), not on God, Himself. When people value what humans say over God's directions, they've become corrupt. When the House burns down, God builds another.
Gods word is His commandments and instructions to His people who are those that "believe" in Him so that they may follow His way in life. God's commandments have not changed, if anything has changed it is how His people have perceived them and have carried out His word through religion.
Atheists are like a another nation separated from God's people. Your morality and values may differ, and what may seem right to you, may differ to what is right according to God.
Wheel your "god" says MANY things are "wrong" ....such as killing.......yet your "god" then proceeds to kill or order it's believers to kill consistently throughout the bible.
Seems like it's only "wrong" WHEN, HOW, and IF (at that specific time) "god" considers it "wrong" .....slippery slope for moral objectivists really. Seeing how , if morality comes from "god", as in, it is the source of morality.....it can change it's mind whenever it wants and ANYTHING that "god" says is "good" becomes "good" simply because "god" said so.
But it's always interesting to see how theists try to respond to this.......the thought experiment forces them to pick between two premises , both of which they don't necessarily like, because of the implications of how it reflects on their "god." Very interesting indeed.
I said "Kill" the commandment is "Thou shalt not KILL" .....then throughout the bible ....your "god" either kills directly or orders others to kill.......hmmmmm Guess it's do as I say ...not as I do ...with your "loving god" huh? Unless he directly tells you to kill...>THEN that's ok as well.
Once again Zan .....making shit up to push her ridiculous , unverifiable narrative.
That's a VERY good question Lis....I could ask YOU and Theists alike the same exact thing.
However, to answer your question directly. My opinion stems from the character of said "god" that is described in the book that most theists consider to be without error , perfect, the divinely inspired word of "god." As that is all anyone has to go on....including theists. Which is why it always baffles my mind when they think that "god" is a "god of love."
"Why waste so much time on a subject that you clearly detest?"
I don't "detest" religion per se. What I "detest" is how people use it, to further an agenda and try to tell others how they may live their lives.
"But more than this...you are so arrogant and prideful...grandiose sense of self...I would've thought you above ego given your intelligence/intellect...Please be kind."
I think you have me confused with most christians sweetie. They are some of the most arrogant people in existence. They way I come across...they way I interact ...is simply a proportionate response to their arrogance and hubris. It irks me when they call their unverified , subjective beliefs...."Truths" then do NOTHING whatsoever to back up this claim. It's dishonest and hypocritical. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Good talk.