If the stars fell: it would seem to me... in a deterministic universe... you are not given purpose, you simply fall into a position in which your attributes best serve the purposes needed...
fustler: I'm not on the determinism bus. Cause and effect is my preferred swill. So no simple falling... Do this... Get that... Don't like what you get? Do something different...
If the stars fell: there are significantly more variables that result in the outcome than simply what you are good at, your attributes are also largely a result of the same causal effect even down to the genetic and molecular level.
Other factors would include availability of resources, ones own motivation or desire, the need in civilization for a teacher, how your methods are perceived by a wider audience.... these are just a myriad of examples that only fall under the human categories.
It is ultimately impossible to extrapolate the outcome which is why it may appear random, or a result of free will, or the illusion of free will and randomness. Our inability to comprehend the variables give us the illusion of choice seemingly in this way... though we ultimately cannot tell the difference between them.
It is perhaps easier to say that what you are is a culmination of events resulting into a deterministic outcome given the variables, though we are not cognizant of this, the same thing applies to inanimate objects in which the question is ultimately irrelevant, as we do not operate by different rules than they do by any metric we are aware of.
fustler in reply to If the stars fell: I would contend with that only insomuch that, human beings are cognizant. We can all reason past the the simple effect from the cause, and ask why. Our understanding of our environment is certainly brought about by our experiences. We can also move past mere conditioning to extrapolations of why we should or shouldn't, through reason and logic.
If the stars fell: it certainly feels that way, though it is impossible to make the distinction between will in this context, and determinism. It may very well be an infference that you have any control but will likely remain a mystery.
One thing that we can be sure of is you have no choice but to act under the presumption.... that you have a choice.
fustler in reply to If the stars fell: That's a sound position, Stars. Still there remains proper argument that the proposition of determinism defies the concept of free will. I'm not taking any context into consideration at this point. The objective argument of free will vs determinism should be enough to bake anyone's noodle.
I'm on the free will wagon. I'm not superstitious, so therefore I don't believe in "fate"
If the stars fell: superstition has nothing to do with it, there is no purpose or intention behind it, it is simply the result of cause and effect, as you previously mentioned.
Spurious_Profile: If what you are good at aligns with what brings you joy/calm/inner peace/fulfilment, then you are living the dream. Doing what you enjoy is more important than doing what you are good at, imo.
fustler in reply to If the stars fell: I don't know why I keep conflating determinism with the concept of fate. That's not an uncommon fallacy though. Say a man commits a crime, and is sentenced to twenty years in prison. Some may simply say that was his fate. That sort of short sighted resignation smacks of superstition. However others might rightly say that he got what he deserved, by way of cause and effect.
Determinism isn't so simple a concept as fate. There can be infinite divergences along a single path. If you set about a task, and complete it; there by is determined a certain outcome. However to go about the very same task in haste, or to procrastinate beforehand might render different results respectively.
Let's get back to our condemned man. He may ride out those twenty years going with the flow. His disposition doesn't improve or worsen. He is released, and is likely to run afoul of the law again. He could decide to buy into prison culture, and get shanked in the bullpen only two calendars in over a ramen noodles deal gone south. He could find religion, become a mentor to fellow inmates, and earn an early release for good behavior. From there he might become a social worker to influence youth in his community to stay on a more stable and upright path than he chose in his own youth. Those are just three hypotheticals plucked from the infinitesimal ether of determinism.
My point is this. I shall be more careful as to not make the mistake of confusing determinism with fate from here on out. Fate has an analogy. Each action is like a drop of rain touching down upon the surface of calm water. It creates ripples that fan out, and can be entirely predictive. I would posit that determinism isn't so simple as Newtonian physics. I'll even try to be hip. *ahem* Determinism is totally quantum, bruh! It has a much more sound metaphor. It's like that path upon which we can only ever, shackled by linear time, move forward. However, if we are all observant, cognizant, and patient enough; we can each find which among the infinite divergences along our own path is (likely) the best one. Predictions are for gamblers and prophets.
Another point might be... Maybe I shouldn't log onto Wire whilst drinky... But where's the fun in that? Waking up hungover... *sudden panic!*
*snatches up phone*
What did I do?! What did I say?! It's always a mixed bag. Such is life, I suppose. I intend to enjoy mine as best I can. You too, Starsy!
I'mma try again, please...
I don't mean to be contentious. I just like chiming in.
So...
1. My attributes would make me a top notch school teacher, but I choose heroin.
2. My attributes would incline me to be a dope addict, but I choose to be a school teacher.
This is the distinction that I missed by a mile. Determinism vs free will... Right?
Other factors would include availability of resources, ones own motivation or desire, the need in civilization for a teacher, how your methods are perceived by a wider audience.... these are just a myriad of examples that only fall under the human categories.
It is ultimately impossible to extrapolate the outcome which is why it may appear random, or a result of free will, or the illusion of free will and randomness. Our inability to comprehend the variables give us the illusion of choice seemingly in this way... though we ultimately cannot tell the difference between them.
It is perhaps easier to say that what you are is a culmination of events resulting into a deterministic outcome given the variables, though we are not cognizant of this, the same thing applies to inanimate objects in which the question is ultimately irrelevant, as we do not operate by different rules than they do by any metric we are aware of.
One thing that we can be sure of is you have no choice but to act under the presumption.... that you have a choice.
I'm on the free will wagon. I'm not superstitious, so therefore I don't believe in "fate"
Doing what you enjoy is more important than doing what you are good at, imo.
Determinism isn't so simple a concept as fate. There can be infinite divergences along a single path. If you set about a task, and complete it; there by is determined a certain outcome. However to go about the very same task in haste, or to procrastinate beforehand might render different results respectively.
Let's get back to our condemned man. He may ride out those twenty years going with the flow. His disposition doesn't improve or worsen. He is released, and is likely to run afoul of the law again. He could decide to buy into prison culture, and get shanked in the bullpen only two calendars in over a ramen noodles deal gone south. He could find religion, become a mentor to fellow inmates, and earn an early release for good behavior. From there he might become a social worker to influence youth in his community to stay on a more stable and upright path than he chose in his own youth. Those are just three hypotheticals plucked from the infinitesimal ether of determinism.
My point is this. I shall be more careful as to not make the mistake of confusing determinism with fate from here on out. Fate has an analogy. Each action is like a drop of rain touching down upon the surface of calm water. It creates ripples that fan out, and can be entirely predictive. I would posit that determinism isn't so simple as Newtonian physics. I'll even try to be hip. *ahem* Determinism is totally quantum, bruh! It has a much more sound metaphor. It's like that path upon which we can only ever, shackled by linear time, move forward. However, if we are all observant, cognizant, and patient enough; we can each find which among the infinite divergences along our own path is (likely) the best one. Predictions are for gamblers and prophets.
Another point might be... Maybe I shouldn't log onto Wire whilst drinky... But where's the fun in that? Waking up hungover... *sudden panic!*
*snatches up phone*
What did I do?! What did I say?! It's always a mixed bag. Such is life, I suppose. I intend to enjoy mine as best I can. You too, Starsy!